Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Bertie Botts, please do start a blog! And where is the other UP friendlier forum? I'm really struggling with UP at the moment.

Do you think you can mix and match UP and non-UP to any degree, or does that negate any of the benefits of the UP approach? I ask as DD's cot sides came off on Monday - she's learned how to get herself out of it, but in a landing-on-head way so no choice really, and I'm so exhausted with DS and his 4 month regression stage (feeding 2 hourly night and day) I agreed with DH that we could do silent return with her to put her back in her room at night to get her to stay in bed and I HATE it but it works. So I'm only moaning really as it just feels horrible putting a crying two year old back in her room without giving her the reassurance she's looking for - she only comes out once or twice, is my only consolation. But when she's over-tired, she can't be reasoned with and it's not practical for us to do co-sleeping or to lie with her til she gets to sleep. We're taking her out on Saturday to choose new bedding which might make it more attractive for her, she's got her comfort bear, I don't know if there is a more UP way of doing it though?

Thanks so much for the advice chellstar. We do already do the 'when you're ready' thing, and I suppose the incentives are kind of what we do. Changing him standing may work. Bertiebotts - great post. I do worry sometimes about being too 'llenient' but with things like throwing food etc, I wouldn't punish just assume meal is over and remove food. Is that up? Whoever posted re mixing and matching - I think we do this, mostly up but a few things that would not be strictly up but appear to work for ds. It's a learning curve though!

Sorry for typos, on phone!

The other forum is Green Parent. It's a lot smaller than mumsnet and much less outspoken, but really good for advice on all AP related parenting subjects, as long as you don't mind that it will be very AP centric with not many other views :)

Other post is in the Parenting section. I will start the blog soon because I've been wanting to start a blog for some time on something more focused or serious than just my LJ ramblings which I have now, and I seem to end up writing mega-posts every time I post on this subject, so it just made sense in the end. I'm not starting it tonight though as I want to get everything set in my head first. It has to be right :)

chellstar - I agree about the fear of things continuing forever, as some behaviours will be outgrown, but what I was meaning wasn't as such about that as being about this notion that if you want a child to learn something then the outcome MUST be unpleasant for them, and that something like reasoning is entirely useless. Which, fair enough, it is in certain situations, but in others it works and it is enough.

For example - I remember a baby signing class, so all the babies were around 6-9 months old, one baby was exploring, as babies do, and pulling hair, as, again, most of them do. But instead of just removing the baby's hand from around her hair and saying "No" or "Gentle" the mum was holding the baby out at arms' length and saying "I do this because he doesn't like it. He needs to associate that pulling my hair leads to something he doesn't like." And I was just because I couldn't see how the baby was supposed to understand this, or why it was any more effective than just removing the baby's hand. So it seemed an unnecessary reason to upset the baby IMO. But this kind of thing is really common - the problem is already dealt with and then there's this feeling that the parents need to attach some kind of sanction as well as the problem solving action.

columbo Funnily enough I met with my NCT group today - there are 4 of us left who meet up and we all have 2.4 year old boys, and every single one of us agreed that we had this problem - other children listen to us, and our children behave for others, but for us, they don't listen. This is really normal, don't worry! It's present with all parenting styles - none of the others in the group do UP, one is quite strict, one is in the middle, and one can be a bit permissive, but generally comes down in the middle as well.

I wonder if it is related to the thing where even a tiny baby will mask their emotions when with other people, and be more upset/angry/excitable with Mum - it's actually a good sign and means he feels more comfortable with you. It doesn't make it any less frustrating though. Is there a specific situation or a few you're finding hard to manage at the moment? You mentioned punching, I've found in a Playful-Parenting type stylee that if DS is frustrating me to the point that I want to hurt him, I can diffuse that by tickling him instead, it totally changes the dynamic, usually distracts him and gives me something to do with my hands!

Wildhood - Mix and matching, definitely. IMO none of the books give a full and rounded picture so you have to take what works from each anyway. I wonder whether the UP approach to the bed problem would be to return her to bed, but be reassuring about it. Why specifically the silent return method? Is it just because it takes less time and is less physically exhausting, with a baby to deal with as well? If this is the case would your DH be willing to help with one or the other? Or does it come from a worry that the attention is some kind of reward or she will come to seek out this night time attention on purpose? Because if this is the case I think it's probably unfounded - but if your DH thinks this is why the silent return method is best then it might be harder to convince him of that. You can do reassuring without full-on lying down with her until she falls asleep. Just a few words and then leave her I think could help. You could also look up the no-cry sleep solution for toddlers?

Cat98 - I'll come back later, I'm exhausted

Wildhood Chunder,

I like UP so much because it's about being honest and treating children as human beings. Looking for real solutions to real problems without producing the fassade that onlookers wish to see being the sole purpose of parenting. But, I think that a central part of this is being honest to yourself as a human being too. Children can learn a lot from watching you protecting yourself and standing up for yourself. These are skills they desperately need to learn and they can best learn them by imitation. So, I think it is completely in line with my parenting ideas to say to the children "I am exhausted. I need to sleep and for me to be able to sleep, I really need you to xxxx (whatever, sleep in your own bed).". The big problem that I have is that two year olds don't understand that!
At present we just co sleep and dh doesn't sleep very well. Aaarrgghhh!
So we're foundering. But THEORETICALLY I think that it is not bad for children for the family to try to reach a situation which is good for everyone including the parents.
This is the old conundrum!

Great! This thread is exactly what I need.

I finally got a copy of UP a couple of months ago after reading about it on here for ages. Turns out that I have been doing many of the UP things anyway. DS1 is 5 now and has never responded well to punishments. He always got extremely distressed and it always ended up with me nursing him. Having read the book, I can see now exactly why he was getting distressed, when the person he is supposed to trust the most is doing something nasty to him.

We really struggled when ds2 was born last year and I took a look at myself one day and realised that all i was doing was threatening him with "if you don't do x, then y will happen" and this made his behaviour worse and worse. I realised it wasn't working when I told him that if he didn't stop doing x then I would take a toy away. He asked "which toy?" which I took to mean he was weighing up the consequence to see if it was worth it!!

I can also see that natural term breastfeeding fits in really well with this parenting approach. I always struggled to fit in "conventional" toddler wisdom alongside nursing. eg, I could never ignore a tantrum, and nursed him instead. I often wondered if I was "rewarding" him for tantrumming, but now I believe that it was reassuring him and making him feel loved and secure. Even now, if he's really struggling with his emotions, a quick nursing session will sort everything.

We also have had real problems with the sibling rivalry. DS1 clearly loves ds2 to bits, but was always hurting him on the sly, you know stuff like standing on his leg as he walked past or "accidently" hitting him on the head when they were playing together. A couple of weeks ago, I asked him if he knew the word jealous. He didn't, so I explained what it meant and said I thought that he might perhaps be feeling a bit jealous of ds2. He thought about it and said he was, so I told him it was ok to feel jealous, but even when he felt terribly jealous, it would be the wrong thing to do to hurt ds2. He said, ok then I won't do it any more. And he hasn't. I am flabberghasted by this. Our conversation took all of a few minutes and has made such a huge difference to us all.

Unbfortunately DH doesn't "get" all this and is puzzled why ds1 doesn't behave well when he is around, barking orders and dishing out punishments. I pointed out to DH that as soon as he walks in the door from work, ds1's behaviour goes down the tubes. No co-oincidence. I have given DH the book to read, but whether he will or not remains to be seen......

This thread is turning out to be fantastic! so many of us here!

I haven't much time but just had to comment on a coupel of things:

Mawboon - when I told him that if he didn't stop doing x then I would take a toy away. He asked "which toy?" which I took to mean he was weighing up the consequence to see if it was worth it!!

This is so true. And is happening with my DS (6yrs) now at school. Unfortunately. He has learnt that it is ok to hit someone at school as long as the teacher is not looking. How sad is that. This school is one of the better ones - more understanding more likely to look for solutions, but still very conditional, and that is one of the results.

I went though the same feelings regards the tantruming - and once into UP always used reasurrance and cuddles/ quiet time together, and later discussion out of the moment, as a way of de-escalating an angry situation. It hsa always worked for us.

That is amazing - about your resolution regarding the jealousy!

And yes - just the same with my DH. He's never read the books, and I accept that he does things his way, and he is responsible for his own relationship with DS. He has picked up bits and pieces from me through modelling, and a little bit of out of the moment discussion.

Bertiebotts
Yes I get the notion you mean about people thinking they have to punish. I cannot believe that about the baby! Poor little thing! I remember a few years ago seeing a Dad smack a baby a few months old because they were crying!

DS2 awake gotta go back later.

This thread is turning out to be fantastic! so many of us here!

I haven't much time but just had to comment on a coupel of things:

Mawboon - when I told him that if he didn't stop doing x then I would take a toy away. He asked "which toy?" which I took to mean he was weighing up the consequence to see if it was worth it!!

This is so true. And is happening with my DS (6yrs) now at school. Unfortunately. He has learnt that it is ok to hit someone at school as long as the teacher is not looking. How sad is that. This school is one of the better ones - more understanding more likely to look for solutions, but still very conditional, and that is one of the results.

I went though the same feelings regards the tantruming - and once into UP always used reasurrance and cuddles/ quiet time together, and later discussion out of the moment, as a way of de-escalating an angry situation. It hsa always worked for us.

That is amazing - about your resolution regarding the jealousy!

And yes - just the same with my DH. He's never read the books, and I accept that he does things his way, and he is responsible for his own relationship with DS. He has picked up bits and pieces from me through modelling, and a little bit of out of the moment discussion.

Bertiebotts
Yes I get the notion you mean about people thinking they have to punish. I cannot believe that about the baby! Poor little thing! I remember a few years ago seeing a Dad smack a baby a few months old because they were crying!

DS2 awake gotta go back later.

It's really nice to find this thread and I've already found it useful in some of the ideas people have suggested, and also just in reminding me that this is a viable route to take.

I bought the book on a recommendation but haven't actually finished it; but as soon as I read the first part where the basic ideas and concepts are set out, I just thought yes - that's exactly how I've always seen things.

I can't claim to parent this way all the time - there are times for me when going down the punishment/reward route is the lesser of two evils - but it relates very closely to the ideal I hold of the kind of mother I want to be, and I think and hope that my intention to love DS absolutely unconditionally (and the fact I really do!) is so strong that he is growing up knowing and feeling that he is loved that way.

Thanks anyway to all those posting on here, there's a lot of really good food for thought.

Hi all fellow UP-ers.

Just wondered what your thoughts/experiences are with situations involving other children & parents that clearly are not following UP?

Even at 18 months, I'm already feeling an expectation from other parents to "deal" with DD if she's involved in an altercation with another child. DD got into a spat with another little girl today at a group. I was watching, and they were just trying to figure things out for themselves and it all got a bit fractious. I stepped in, intending on providing a second dolls pram to help solve the problem. At the same time, the other child's mother went launching in shouting something about sharing and took her daughter away to a makeshift naughty chair!! Both me and DD were left a bit shellshocked, and just went about our business. But I think she thought I should have 'done' something to DD by the look she gave me!

Also, I recently found myself dragged into the punishment of someone elses child

I gave a friend's little boy a present recently, and after he'd opened it my friend asked him to sign Thank You. When he didn't, she announced that I was going to take it back as he hadn't said Thank You. She then thrust it in my hand, and forced him to sign Thank You before I could give it back. He was 18 months old

I felt really awkward, and didn't really know what to do! Both her child and my DD looked at me as if I was barmy!

Any tips for handling these sorts of situations? Or is it a case of just keeping your head down and scuttling off at the soonest opportunity!

HI justalittleblackraincloud,

I think if it is a good friend of yours, you may be able to discuss your differences in an honest way, so that you both understand each other.

I had a fall out with a relative who had children the same age, over punishing for toilet training accidents. I decided that it was too stressful to be around her, so after some time will only see her on mutal territory and not too frequently, as she is not the sort of person who woudl be open to UP. Again I have a friend who is very "carrot and stick" with her children, and when we have all been together, has been very disaproving of my Ds for some minor things. There were some other issues, so I don't see her very often, and extremely rarely with the children. When I do plan to see her I do so in the evening without children, its just easier.

I think it is different if someone is trying to discipline your children, then you may have to step in to support your child, and deal with the situaiton as you would normally handle the situation. This can be quite challenging, even though you are handling it in a calm way, as it can cause others to respond with disaproval. I have foudn UP very challenging - particularly to my core beliefs.

I don;t think I would try to explain Up unless someone was genuinely interested. And I guess it is every persons individual choice as to which parenting style they use, even if we don't agree with it- I don't know if that has really answered your question really!

In situations where someone has tried disciplining my children, I have been very determined. I have made eye contact with the other adult, called them by name and told them that I am dealing with the situation and so would they please let me deal with it on my own. Somehow in this situation I see red! I stay calm but I CANNOT let them treat my child like that! - admittedly it has only happened with people I know well.
The situation which you described, justalittleblackraincloud with the doll´s pram, I think I would have done exactly as you did - just go about my business, with the second doll´s pram and let the other mother go about her business with her makeshift naughty chair.
Regarding the situation where the friend wanted you to take back the present, I´m afraid I think I would have undermined the other adult :). I probably in the situation would not have known how to react and would just have been shell-shocked but if I had been able to react quickly enough, I would have liked to say "No, I brought the present because I hoped that Jimmy would enjoy playing with it. That is enough thanks for me" and given it back to him.
Whether it is a good idea or not, I do ask my children to say please and thank you to people (although I think the idea of punishing them if they don´t say it completely mad!). I very very often get the reaction from adults "the look on her face says it all" or "I can see that she is pleased, I don´t need to hear it" or the equivalent. I don´t think that that is undermining. I would be happy for my children to pick up that I try to be polite and kind to other people and they also are being kind to me at the same time - there is some redundancy in kindness! - and for me that is a good thing!
It is difficult, though, how people expect you to discipline your child. One tactic I have is to take my child away to another part of the room/playground, throwing a "determined" glance at the other parent intended to make them feel I am taking the situation seriously, and then just have a "huddle" talk with my kids about what went on just as I would normally.
Something I find really hard is when adults want to talk about kids (disparagingly) in front of the kids. My mum did this in front of me incessantly and I find it very easy to slip into the role ... or rather very hard to stop myself doing it when the other adults are trying hard to "collaborate" with me. I mean situations usually with older ladies saying "oh, she won´t put her coat on will she?! I know what they´re like! They don´t see sense, do they!". I find it really hard to stay true to my kids then and not join in with a knowing nod or something. Aarrrrgghhh!

some great stuff here in the last few days!

mawbroom yy to natural term bf being very hard to reconcile with conventional parenting

and i'm another who would vote strongly for undermining the adult conspiracy. where people assume i am complicit in their arbitrary punishments, i make it clear to the children that i am not.

Hi ladies, I haven't posted on here before but I have read AK's book and would describe myself as a mum who has tried to take the UCP/attachment style parenting route.

I am having an issue in that my DD who is 22 months has been a grabber, pincher etc for a few months. She does it mainly to other children who she doesn't know that well - issues with sharing toys etc. I tell her 'touch gently, we don't hurt others' over and over but it doesn't seem to make much difference. I feel absolutely awful when she does it to a child and feel sure the mum is judging me and thinking 'why is she letting her get away with the behaviour?' However, I don't believe DD is doing it maliciously - it is her lack of communication, frustration, teething pain etc I think and hopefully it will resolve in time (pls wiser mums say it will!). Sometimes I find it hard to have perspective as she is my first child.

As a bit of bkground, I went bk to work part time when DD was 10 months and she was in a nursery 2 and a half days a week and found the separation v hard (well we both did). There was some aggression amongst children and she got bitten a couple of times. I wonder if this bad experience made her fearful of other children hence her lashing out at kids who haven't done anything to her. I took her out of the nursery after 4 months and gave up work to be at home full time.

I hope someone can help with some words of advice/wisdom. I am feeling that the UCP path is a very lonely one at the moment and don't know anyone is RL who has even heard of Alfie's work. Many thanks in advance.

Hi cosmogirl :) You say you tell your DD to be gentle a lot, but does she know what gentle means? Explaining is good and I would always try to keep explaining even if a child is pre-verbal, but I think it's even more important (especially when they are little) to back it up with an action. So supervise closely and try to intervene before she grabs etc, holding her arm and making a gentle stroking movement with it. I'm not sure about grabbing and pinching specifically but I have had a lot of success stopping DS biting by saying "People are not for biting. If you want something to bite, how about an apple, or some toast?" - now some people are aghast at this saying I'm rewarding him for biting by offering him apple every time he does it, but actually it worked - a few weeks ago he got halfway to biting me, I recoiled instinctively and he stopped and said "Not bite mummy, bite apple." and I thought AHA, YES! And since then he has not bitten me once.

But anyway I'm going off on a tangent here. I suppose it is possible that your DD might have picked up the aggressive reactions from others in nursery, so I suppose the best way to counter this is just to play with her quite a lot and model good sharing - it's also important to remember that sharing isn't inherent for under-3s, they find it very difficult because they haven't developed the ability to do so yet. I think that true sharing is an unrealistic expectation in under-3s. Turn taking works very well as it's a lot easier for them to understand, and you can sometimes have success with splitting a large group of toys (e.g. building blocks, trains) into smaller groups for young children to play with separately, but playing simultaneously with one toy is hard for them because they expect to have full control over it, and can't understand sharing that control just yet.

Frustration will definitely play a part as well and hopefully things will improve when she learns more words, which should happen over the next year or so.

Hello - glad to find this thread. I have a five year old who has just started school and is wearing me out. He has become obsessed with the reward system at school and is really testing us out at home - lots of rudeness, bossiness, and generally reverting to three year old ness. It's hard not to get caught in the 'do this and I'll take that away' trap. I've been trying to get him to brainstorm solutions with me - we've come up with some good ideas, but when he's cross (a good proportion of the time after school!) he just loses it big time and hurls insults or damages things.

Antimony, we appear to be coming out of the 'always cross after school' phase with DD who is just 6. What worked for us was for me 'babying' her just to get through it. I completely lowered my expectations on school days. They have to be so 'grown up' all the time at school.

Also, don't forget to ask your son how you can help him through this. He may have some ideas.

Thanks for your suggestions Bertie. Yep I do the stroke gently, touch gentle etc and demonstrate how we are gentle. Still, I think when she is overcome with these emotions she forgets all that and resorts to her grabbing or pulling behaviours.

I had an idea that maybe when she does it I remove her from the situation and take her to another room to sit with me until she has calmed down enough to rejoin the other children. I'm not sure if this would sit with the UC approach but I am running out of ideas now. We are going to a relatives house this weekend to stay overnight. She has a 4 and 16 month old and I am quite nervous about how DD will be - whether I will spend my whole weekend on edge thinking she will lash out at them :-(

Antimony- sorry you are having a tough time atm. I think Othersideofthechannel gave some good advice. It is difficult not to get dragged into the reward punishment system as it is what so much of our society is based upon!

Cosmogirl I think that with little-ies we have to be much more present with them in this sort of situation than our society usually expects. So down on the floor, between two children if needed.

I really really don't believe in "sharing" for small children. Really really don't believe in it. We say "share nicely"; they hear "let go of that thing you are so fascinated by".

So. I work on the principle that possession is 9/10ths of the law. If a child is holding an object and another wants it, I redirect the wanter - and that might mean scooping them away to something else. With that age group, it can help to have multiple objects of the same class around. e.g. red truck is a bone of contention, so you grab a whole box of trucks and offer a blue one, a yellow one "no" "no" "ok, I'll put that one up my jumper for safekeeping. What about a green one?" "no" "ok I'll put that one up your jumper for safekeeping" etc

very few pre-3s will stay with the desire for the first toy if you make other toys fun enough.

ommmward - I think you are right there and the behaviour does tend to happen when I am at a playdate for example and busy chatting to the mum - thus not giving DD and the other child my attention. I am probably expecting too much of her :-( I just think there is so much pressure from other mums to let kids 'get on with it', turn their backs and ignore them basically. I suppose I need to stick more firmly to my convictions and not worry so much what others think. The most important thing for me is that the behaviours stop and the other children aren't hurt etc and that DD is happier and doesn't feel the need to resort to these ways to deal with the situation.

For example, if a mum starts talking to you and having an in depth convo about something I feel it's hard to get away and go and supervise DD to make sure she is ok and not getting to trouble with grabbing toys/other kids etc..

I don't think that removing from the situation is necessarily incompatible with UP. Just because something is reminiscent of a more traditional punishment method does not mean we should be afraid to use it, in a justified situation. You are removing her because she is lashing out - I do similar with DS when he is very tired and starts throwing or smashing at his food, but like you, I sit with him until he calms down. It's not meant to be a punishment, so the onus isn't on leaving him, withdrawing attention or moving him from an interesting environment to a boring one, but an opportunity to cool off and reassess the situation, and I believe while he's young it helps him if I can go through those motions with him to remind him of how to do it.

I do tend to stick to the notion of removing other things rather than him though if possible. So when he wants to play too roughly with our cat I will rescue the cat and stroke him on my lap. If DS wants to come up and stroke him too, that's fine, if he wants to come up and pinch him, I can grab his hand before he makes contact! I can also model a nice way to touch him and show DS that the cat is happy when we stroke him and he doesn't scratch or bite me. But in some situations it's easier to remove the child themselves - I think that's fine when it's necessary (ie damage control!) and as long as you attach an explanation to it, and stay with them while they calm down if they are young enough to need that.

Also, I think that actually removing from the situation to calm down was in fact where the idea for time out came from, and then supernanny etc just picked up on the fact that this is stopping the child from doing what they want, so as an unpleasant consequence it works in the same way as any other punishment would, and ran with that angle of it, which I think is a shame when it works just as well without focusing on that side of it.

I agree if you are removing a child from a situation but you are staying with them then it isn't a punishment and can't really be interpreted as 'withdrawing love'.

Cosmogirl, I see your DD isn't even 2 yet. You are going to have to be prepared to repeat yourself a lot more!!

Have you asked the other mums what they think about your response when your DD grabs or pinches? I know a lot of people who do naughty step, rewards, punishments but when their children were under 2 they knew biting, grabbing etc was fairly common behaviour and would just use No + distract. I'm sure there are a lot of parents out there who use those widely accepted discipline methods who would agree that there isn't much point on under twos.