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Unconditional Parenting Support thread

367 replies

tillymama · 04/12/2010 12:50

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

----

Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

OP posts:
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Othersideofthechannel · 30/01/2011 06:12

You can edit posts by clicking on preview but once you've clicked on post, it's too late.

By a personality thing, I meant that as your son isn't the only child who is finding it difficult to do what he is asked quickly at school, and those other children are presumably all parented in different ways, that it's probably more to do with your son's personality rather than the way you parent. Some kids find changing activities harder than others. Some kids find sitting still harder than others. Shy kids might find it difficult to contribute in class etc.

Simic · 30/01/2011 09:45

I know exactly your situation, Chellstar, with critical relatives present. Everything goes out of the window as you feel torn between doing what they expect and going your own way and then the relative blames anything that´s not 100% perfect on you and your "wrong" ideas -and that puts more pressure on you and things are preprogrammed to go wrong. I find with my parents now (where I have that situation) that I try to stick to what I want to do and make a conscious effort to take more time for myself to think things through when they´re there - just that doesn´t work so well in shops! I had a situation at christmas where we had been to a puppet show and were in the same building in the corridor leaving when dd had a melt down. It was on 27th - she had been so high all over Christmas and then after going to this puppet show with my mum, sister and sister´s partner, she just crashed. She was exhausted. I was very happy about how I dealt with it. I just stayed calm. I reassured dd and talked with her about different solutions to the trigger problem (knee hurt and she couldn´t stick the plaster I gave her on in the way she wanted). We just calmly stayed there (I was calm, she was crying and sometimes shrieking and having quite a lot of cuddles) until she could find a way of making her knee better in the way she wanted. Every time she had a new idea for how she wanted to do the plaster, I tried to support her in that (we used a lot of my plasters and I had to keep going into the cafe in the building borrowing their scissors! My sister (who has no children of her own) was furious afterwards saying how I had not put an end to the tantrum (i didn´t consider it a tantrum even) as it must have disturbed all the people in the building who didn´t have children. That and other situations have made me feel I have to minimise contact with my sister!

JustForThisOne · 30/01/2011 12:12

Can't remember who askes, but I think Steiner shcools are more in line with UP an dpossibly Montessori, although I don't know much about them. Unfortunaltey I think they are private, so you have to pay.

Neither are in line with UP if I understand correctly what UP is

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

JustForThisOne · 30/01/2011 12:12

oops first paragraph was a quote from Chellstar

JustForThisOne · 30/01/2011 12:20

Simic what you describe happens to me on a few occasion
DS has melt down and not only you are trying to do your best and be on dc side... but you have to block off also the mattering of people with you that cross boundaries shouting out (so to speak not quite literally) their advice
Hard work but also the only way I know it works with my ds when he has a ''fit''. It is so obvious that he is in pain and huge discomfort that I feel utterly sorry for him. As a result I had to stop going out with a lovely couple of friend whos son has the same type of extreme melt downs but they choose to deal with it with time out, punishment, taking away s/t...
With my cheeky ds that would not work as he would say right away Mum that is bribery!

MonkeyandParrot · 30/01/2011 19:14

Sambucol thanks :-) I did actually think this all out when DD1 was about 12 months and her first proper word was 'no' Everyone told me that all kids learn no quickly but i felt that they were copying what they heard adults say and i felt sad that DD1 heard 'no' so often. Did a bit of research and found UP parenting and i do try to stick to it though i often go wrong. Today we were stuck indoors as DD2 has D and V and when my tot asked for a story i said no and she said 'why not?' Smile At least i know she used to an explanation! Though i have plenty of people tell me that she is backchatting (at 2.5?)
And Justforone i agree about bribery - when DD1 kicks off you can't talk to her so i make sure she is safe and just let her get it out of her system before chatting about the trigger. Once, in a library a very sweet librarian saw I was BF DD2 and bribed DD1 out of a tantrum into a story. The very next time i was busy with dd2 and dd1 wanted a story she threw a fake tantrum Smile I was quite proud of how quickly she had worked that out.....

MoonFaceMamaaaaargh · 31/01/2011 19:10

Just popping back in to put this in my threads.

Smile
chellstar · 31/01/2011 19:39

Otherside of the channel, thanks for your comments about personality, makes me feel a bit better! I do think he has a strong personality, from birth.

Simic, it was interesting to hear about your story. And very well handles I think - about the plasters. I think it does take a lot of courage to carry out UP when others are around, particularly with relatives or others who pass judgements - (verbal or non verbal for that matter) esp critical ones!
I had to limit contact with SIL due to a very different view of parenting.

Just for this one, how clever - re bribery!

Monkey and parrot, I was told that about my DS when he was about 2 - re back chat!

Cat98 · 02/02/2011 21:33

Hi, I'm struggling with UP at the moment. DS is nearly 3. It's when, for example, he needs to have his nappy changed (not toilet trained yet), or when we need to leave the house to go somewhere, or get him changed for bed. We try everything - making it fun etc. The only thing that works is bribery with something (eg a made up story while we change him/the tv). I know this isn't UP but nothing else works! He has very good language and comprehension, understands explanations, just point blank refuses and runs off and hides!

Any help welcomed!
Thanks.

Othersideofthechannel · 03/02/2011 05:56

Is making dull routine activities fun with a story or a song or role-playing bribery?

I don't think so. I think it is par for the course when parenting a 2 yr old.

Simic · 03/02/2011 07:47

I agree with Othersideofthechannel. A story is not bribery - stories to make a boring/not very pleasant activity fun is just normal and I think it's great parenting. We had our annual check up at the family doctor's last week and he really did it masterfully: all the time he was examining my 5 year old dd (including things she really would normally object to), he was talking to her about what it was that gave the energy to keep her body working ... he started off by telling her that she had a button on her side to switch her on and off and underneath that button was a little compartment where her batteries were. He really had her laughing and laughing. Then he carried on talking about food and it giving you energy and asking her about her breakfast etc. He really connected with her - she loved it and felt it as really nice, personal attention - and didn't even notice the lamp in her ear.

Cat98 · 03/02/2011 13:16

Thank you. This is reassuring. I just thought it was bribery because of the way I say it - if you come here and let mummy clean your teeth i'll tell you a story, who do you want in it? - Etc etc. It works, but wasn't sure if it matched the up style of parenting that I so agree with, but find hard sometimes!

MonkeyandParrot · 03/02/2011 13:23

I have a 2.5 year old and I have exactly the same problem - I don't know if it would work with your little boy but I find rephrasing makes it less like bribery. So I say to DD1, 'when you come and brush your teeth, we can tell as story'. Don't know if that is any less like bribery but it feels more open ended. Also sets up an expectation that I am fully expecting her to brush her teeth whereas if I ask she is more likely to run. I also think there are times when bribery is neccessary even with UP parenting - I can only get DD1 to swallow medicine with the bribe of chocolate.

Othersideofthechannel · 03/02/2011 16:31

I suppose it is bribery if you say 'if you do this, I'll do this nice thing with you'.

But if you just make story telling or another fun activity part of the teeth routine, then I don't think it is.

For a while we always had to turn some sort of screen on to get DS to sit still long enough to get his shoes on!

Simic · 07/02/2011 16:56

Hello everyone!
I could do with some tips to encourage my dd (5) to be a bit more empathetic. She seems to spend her whole time at home shouting at ds (2) "that´s mine!", snatching things off him etc.. Just now ds pointed to the moon and said "moon!" to which dd replied "I saw it first! I really saw it ages before he did, just I didn´t say!". Yesterday she had been reading a book with her dad while ds had been playing on his own. When she finished the book, she walked over to ds and pinched him. She couldn´t tell us why at all. I can see that she is feeling acutely jealous of him and am trying to spend plenty of time with her on her own and give her lots of attention. But, I wonder how I can get across to her that he has feelings too and to try to get her to imagine how he feels???
I´ve tried explaining to her, with examples, of how happy it makes me when I can make someone else happy. Just because I enjoy seeing them happy. So if ds or dd wants to play with something of mine, I just love watching them enjoying themselves. I´ve tried the "I´m sure you can imagine how ds feels when you take a toy away from him, he seems really upset that he was just busy playing and this big girl just took his toy away". Any ideas? Or am I expecting too much of a five year old? It´s driving dh and me mad at present because it´s really constant!

Othersideofthechannel · 07/02/2011 20:49

I don't think you are expecting too much apart from asking her 'why' she did a mean thing. (I don't think they know why they do mean things at that age.) Your explanations seem a bit long-winded. I tend to use too many words myself but I recognise that when I use less, I get my message across better.
Of course you need to keep reminding her of the rules eg 'Pinching hurts. DS is upset now'. Could you leave it at that and then when the moment has passed, explore the theme of how people feel more indirectly rather than making it about her brother? Puppet shows and talking about how characters in stories might be feeling comes to mind.

Have you read Sibling Rivalry? There is some useful stuff in there.

I do find the sibling stuff tricky. DS comes to me and says 'you must punish DD because she did xyz to me and you need to teach her a lesson'. Hmm
So it can look to one sibling like you aren't doing enough just like it looks to other parents like you aren't addressing the problem. The other thing is that when one child has hurt or upset another, you are torn between the 'victim' and the feelings of child who did the hurting or upsetting. If the one who did the hurting isn't ready to help make the hurt one feel better, it can feel like you are pushing them away.

Othersideofthechannel · 07/02/2011 20:51

I meant to say, it can feel like you are pushing them away when you focus on the one who got hurt.

Simic · 07/02/2011 21:30

Thanks Othersideofthechannel! That´s really useful! I think that you´re right that I talk too much and should keep it much shorter (not that you MNers haven´t noticed :) ). I think I have to go back through Siblings without Rivalry...!

chellstar · 09/02/2011 16:06

Hi,

Cat98 - I remember having similar scenarios with Ds at that age. On a practical note, have you tried standing nappy changes? This helped a lot with Ds as the part he hated most was being layed down.
When I first started Up I went through a very steep learning curve which challenged a lot of my beliefs. Basically my rules now revolve around health,safety and respect. Everything else can be negotiated. So for example, who says we can't wear our pyjamas to the shops / wear day clothes to bed? What harm could possibly come from that? Who makes up these unwritten social rules and why must we comply with them?. I agree if a child does not want to wear ANY clothes, then that could be a safety issue - due to temperatures, hurting themselves/ potentially being harmed etc. All of this can be explained even to a 2 or 3 yr old, and some things just aren't negotiable.

I remember DS at 2.5 not wanting to wear trousers. I agonised over this,(what woudl other people think of me? and as a parent?) but finally relented. Only in certain shops where it was a rule to cover up would I enforce it. I took him to nursey and was so scared about what response I would get from the staff. Luckily they were ok, and we all agreed that he could have no trousers, as long as he out them on to go outside - mud could dry out his skin (eczema)and the place would get dirty (nursey rule - respect).
DS areed readily. He was being potty trained at the time. When I came to pick him up they told me he had been dry for the first time! What I hadn't realised was that DS had actually thought things through and didn't want trousers because he could pull his pants down quickly when he need to go to the toilet!.

He is now 6 years old and he always wears trousers out now!

Sorry for going on!

With regards to bribery - I used incentives, eg "you can have some sweets, but I would like you to have a bath- it's important to be clean and keeps us healthy". Give choice about when they can dress/ bath etc. " Iwill leave your clothes here, let me know when you are ready to get dressed", and leave plenty of time so that they really do have a choice..Keep popping in now and then to see if they are ready. When J woudln't get in the bath I would say he can have sweets while he's in the bath, if he didn't get in and still wanted the sweets I would give them to him he he asked. Funnily enough he never took advantage of this.

Try negotiating - what woudl help you to get dressed? Is there something you would like to do/ go / play, make realistic suggestions.

HTH a bit!!!
Simic, I think that othersidefothechannel has come up with a lot of useful stuff, not sure what to add - will come back later.

chellstar · 09/02/2011 16:10

I have just found out about Naomi Aldorts discussion forum - www.naomialdort.com/discussion.html

BertieBotts · 09/02/2011 22:55

I was talking about UP and related "gentle" discipline etc with my Mum today. I had felt a bit apprehensive with ever bringing up the subject of discipline with her because although I feel she was UP in a lot of ways, always reassuring us that we were loved, lots of explanations etc and attempting to address the whole issue rather than just fix the immediate "problem", she did used to smack and once smacked DS instinctively because he was hurting the cat and she couldn't think of any other way to get him to let go. (Not hard and I don't think he noticed.) TBH I think if she'd had access to the kind of resources I have access to, books, internet, etc, she perhaps wouldn't have - but of course it was just the done thing in previous decades.

But she said something which I thought was really interesting. I was explaining how I think the mainstream approach of waiting for the child to do something wrong and then punishing them is backwards, and just treats the symptom, and that what really matters is to encourage your child to be respectful, empathetic, etc from the start - by treating them with empathy and respect. And of course at times they will do things which challenge this, but the important thing is that they don't repeat the unwanted action, learn WHY not to do something, and/or what the effect of that action is - and while that might well involve something commonly thought of as a punishment, e.g. if I cannot trust you to walk by a road safely, you must hold hands or sit in a pushchair etc, if the child understands the message then an unrelated punishment is unnecessary, and I wondered out loud why so many people think they MUST make their child suffer to "pay" for what they have done wrong, as if it's the only way they will ever learn. I said it's almost like revenge, and she said yes, it's because they are taking it personally. Once you realise it's just a child being a child and not a child out to make your life hell for fun, discipline stops being a battle between the child and the parent, and becomes more of what it is - showing a child how to be an adult and equipping them with the skills necessary to survive in an adult world.

She also said that at any point if you feel frustrated with your child, try to step back and think wait, AM I taking this personally? Am I reacting because of that? Do I need to calm down and look at this situation more objectively?

I often find that when I'm getting frustrated with DS I write out a huge post, not on here, unless I can find a safe UP thread, but on another parenting forum which is more UP-friendly (as MN can be pretty UP-unfriendly at times) and I'll go away and when I come back a couple of days later and read it back, it's obvious - recently I was having trouble with DS hitting and pinching me, and I posted, and got a couple of replies, but nothing ground-breaking. But when I came back a few days later I could see exactly what the problem was, and it's that I haven't been giving him enough physical attention/physical play, because the times that it happens are either when he's tired or his blood sugar is low (me not being organised enough with bedtimes, naps and mealtimes) or days when I've vegged on the computer all day and fobbed him off to play with his trains or watch youtube sitting on my lap.

Anyway I'm waffling. On a semi-related note, these threads have been a fantastic resource for me, on a theoretical as well as a practical level, and I'm thinking about starting a blog on these kind of non-punishment, non-coercive discipline techniques, because they are so complex that it's impossible to explain in a single post, and I think it would be useful to be able to collate information. Going to start a thread asking about names/terms if anyone wants to input.

chellstar · 10/02/2011 08:43

HI Bertie Botts. Your post was very interesting.

and I wondered out loud why so many people think they MUST make their child suffer to "pay" for what they have done wrong, as if it's the only way they will ever learn. I said it's almost like revenge, and she said yes, it's because they are taking it personally.

Absolutely.

I do think that a lot of people are afraid (including myself at times) that the unwanted behaviour will continue for ever, unless they do something to stop it immediately. "Oh he's getting away with it" I am still learning all the time and learning to trust myself and my judgement
about my parenting choices, which is very hard when others around you disagree.

But when I came back a few days later I could see exactly what the problem was, and it's that I haven't been giving him enough physical attention/physical play, because the times that it happens are either when he's tired or his blood sugar is low (me not being organised enough with bedtimes, naps and mealtimes) or days when I've vegged on the computer all day and fobbed him off to play with his trains or watch youtube sitting on my lap.

I can totally relate to this!

Which parenting forum do you use that is UP freindly?

Let me know about the thread you are going to start,would love to be part of that.:)

Simic · 10/02/2011 09:11

Bertie Botts, I think it would be fantastic for you to start a blog! Please keep us posted - give us links etc!

I'd also be interested to know which UP friendly parenting forum you use??!

InmaculadaConcepcion · 10/02/2011 11:42

Really good point from you and your mum, Bertie.

columbo · 10/02/2011 12:40

Hi, I'm looking for advice and answers on how best to parent my spirited 4 year old.

I have the UP book along with Playful Parenting and these definitely are the sort of thing that I instinctively agree with.

However, I'm on my own with DS a lot, he's a handful, and I'm suffering with chronic anaemia and there is other stuff going on with that means I'm just not in a good place.

DS (according to others) is sociable, confident, bright, happy, secure. So far so good.

However he's recently started throwing his weight about physically, whacking other kids at playschool and punching me whenever he doesn't get his way.

The problem really is that I feel ineffectual and I think he picks up on that. He doesn't listen to me, and I just don't know how to get that working? Another child was here to play the other day without his mum and I noticed that when I went into "parental authority" mode a few times over the afternoon, the other kid immediately paid attention but my own child never does this. He doesn't do it with other adults either.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really - I just feel like I've failed and I wonder if my boy is being like this because my own feelings of powerlessness are affecting him somehow.

Does this seem familiar at all and could UP address it?

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