Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

I don't compliment my children on their appearance except on cue (usually when I am being asked to admire a princess/superhero/etc/etc costume).

I think that if my relatives were complimenting my children when they wore certain conform-to-stereotype clothes, I would be inclined to dress them in jeans and a blue t-shirt every time I saw said relatives

Thinking back, my parents never remarked on my appearance, or hardly at all. Through the teen years, my mother used to say that she understood that I felt like an ugly duckling, but that I truly would turn into a swan one day (and she was right, I did). I really value the way that they brought me up to be so unselfconscious about my appearance, now that I am a frazzled mother who only occasionally manages to run a hairbrush through her hair and find some clean clothes to put on...

Anyone else's child often come out with "if you don't do xxxx, I won't love you/do xxxxx" style sentences?

DD does this such a lot. I never had it with DS. Do you think it is something to do with how 6 year girls play at school?

My DD does it too (5). I cringe that it reflects me "If you don´t get dressed, we can`t go to the zoo" (aaarrrggghhh). But I think a lot of it does go on at preschool.

Oh that is relief Simic. I didn't think it reflected me but do find it frustrating to deal with. How do you respond?

When she is talking like that, I ask her to reword things so she practises conveying how important it is for her that I do something without threatening me.

Hi I'm new to this site, but am really excited to have found this Unconditional Parenting thread.

I have been using UP since DS was 2. He is now 6 years old. I know when I read through Peapod wondered how Up fits if your child is beign looked after by others who use a different approach. I am struggling at the moment, due to Ds's school approach which is behavioural.

Things have been going well on the whole, (after some issues of settling) since he started this new school a year ago. However now the teacher is concerned because he is not always listening to her - and does not always do what she asks immediately, he also gets into trouble for talking too much, when he should be listening. He also gets over excited in PE, and climbs on eqipment , for example, when he should not be. music is the other session where he seems to get into trouble. Some new reception children started in January, so this may have affected him, and kind of made him regress a bit - possibly.

We had a meeting and I agreed to a behavioural approach, even though that feels uncomfortable for me comign from an UP way of thinking. So he has to achieve at least 4 out of 6 lessons where he is well behaved, then he gets a fridge magnet from me, and 5 magnets = a special treat.
There are a couple of other boys also on this system, so it's not just Jacob. She also wanted me to take something away from him as a punishment if he did not achieve at leat 4/6, but I am not going to do this. She wants me to work on getting him to do thinks instantly at home too, as she thinls that this will help in school. At home, for me it's not much of a problem, and I like the way we do things in the main. EG

" J you need to brush your teeth now"
"In a minute, when I've finished doing this"

"Ok"
Then he will go off brush his teeth, wash his face and get ready without any prompting at all. And I am quite proud of the fact that he seems to be thinking things through and planning. However at times he doesn't listen, especially when i ask him to stop doing something, when he will do the thing I have asked hhim to stop once or twice more before stopping. (he has always done this)Later when I've talked to him about it, he says he is sorry, but then may do something similar again. I am worried that my UP approach has made it very difficult for him at school.

I know in Alfie Kohns book he sayd that it can be difficult when at school with having 2 different approaches. I want him to be an independent thinker and assertive, so that he has good skills and not be walked over, but he also needs to do what he is told in school and to stop doign certain things when I ask him too. I am once again feeling confused, and hope that I haven't done the wrong thing by choosing this pathway and made life just too hard for him.

Sorry for such a long post!
Any enlightenment would be much appreciated.!

THANKS

Really glad to see this thread is active again as I've now read the book! Hurrah!

I found it fascinating. Really learnt a lot about myself through it.

Angledog Which bit's are you not sure about? I didn't really have any so I'm wondereing if my critical faculties aren't up to the job (though DH is reading it now and he will deconstruct it no doubt.. )

DS is only 11m so I haven't really had chance to try and put it in to practice yet, but it is definatly already changing the way I practice. I'm big on chatting to ds about everything, as much a anything so I can get some practice in before he can answer back

Chellstar welcome to MN If I were youu I would re read the book at this point to remind myself why I was going down a UP route. And perhaps look in to the studies sited and even ais these with your ds's teacher so they understand the basis for what you are doing. I would imagine they have never realy heard of UP sadly

On a related note does anyone know of any schools/studies looking at this approach in the classroom?

WIll post before laptop crashes...grrr

Back again... otherside I was thinking about your dd annd the jumper (was it your dd...'tis on other page now and silly laptop won't let me see it...) and wondering if there is something other than the jumper/cold behind it...could it be a desire/need to be overtly "looked after" iyswim...could there be a trigger that might make her want to be a "baby"? SO with that in mind...if it might be something like that....perhaps attending to this, even in a playfull way, ie pretending to completely dresss her, or put all her jumpers on her at once or something...hmmm

Back again in a mo...

I'm a bit of an imposter here, really, because I wouldn't describe myself as a UP parent at all. In fact, I posted a lot on the UP forum back in the day, and I was one of the people exploring the philosophy behind the Alfie Kohn books and how (in my opinion) he doesn't go FAR ENOUGH in challenging the boundaries of parental authority...

Like, there's a bit in the book where he states it as if it is incontrovertible fact that chocolate cake can't be eaten by a child before their proper meal

So...

that said, I think if my child was in a school that was really behaviourist, I would refuse to comply with the adult conspiracy. It might be a matter of "school have rules about who is allowed to talk when, and what you are allowed to do on the gym equipment when. Some of those rules are sensible; some of them are just mad. Tell me what I can do to help you cope with the madness of the rules" but I would not become part of a school-based punishment and rewards system. That would undermine my family culture in a completely unacceptable way. What happens in school stays in school. If they want to punish a child, that's their business, but they don't get to impose their punishment on how I interact with my family.

I would also offer my child the get-out clause at any point: if they do not like the school culture, then I would Home Educate them. (in fact, we do HE, but have never used school)

ALso Orm and Wild I too get really annoyed by people going overboard (imo) re looks etc. I was discussing this t'other day with someone who wants her dd to feel confident about how she looks. I was trying to explain that I didnt think lots of compliments were the way to go on this. When I came home and started reading the book AK put it really well (though about a different thing) He said it isn't ok to swap a negative judgment for a possitive one...is the judgement that matters.

I don't want my dc/s to grop up thinking everyone goes round judging peoples looks all the time (thouugh I worry somepeole do...)...so I won't be going overboard on the compliments...only time will tell how I will handle other people doing so!

SOrry I ment ommm above...

I can see where youu are comming from with the cake thing. I'm not that hung up on what is eaten when and what ak says there does seem rather Adult Authorataiy! I remember thinkting when I read it that perhaps it seemed almost like a pretence at retaining control...a sop to conditional parents perhaps?

Thanks Moonface - yes I should re read the whole book I think, I have been picking bits out only.
Ommmward, thanks for your comments too. That is a good idea about askign what I can do to help re the maddness of rules. I agree with home ed, but it's not an option for us unfortunately. That is the trouble, if I don't comply with the school and get J to do what they want, then I will eb making school life very difficult for him. I do think that Up and home ed fit together much better.

Can't remember who askes, but I think Steiner shcools are more in line with UP an dpossibly Montessori, although I don't know much about them. Unfortunaltey I think they are private, so you have to pay.

Yes Chellstar I imagine you are right...just wondering cause I often work in schools and wondered if there were any models for how I could combine my new knowlege with my practice...Thank you for the suggestions...I'll look in to them...

I don't think steiner schools are in line with UP at all. Not with the gnomes and the no black crayon and the no reading till 7 and the bullying is because you have issues from a previous life [shameless stereotyping]

But free schools are - summerhill stylee schools. (not free as in no money, free as in free children)

Hi everyone,

I agree that I don´t think Steiner schools are compatible with UP. They have an authoritarian ethos, as ommmward says with the no reading before 7, Rudolf Steiner (single authority on child development) decided when and how a child should develop (eg. start painting, start reading) and children should follow this. Similarly, he saw children as divided into the Roman four "classes" of personality (sanguine, choleric...) and teachers should fit each child into one of these classes and treat them accordingly. Obviously, however, not all Walldorf teachers are orthodox Steiner so you can be very lucky and just find a teacher/school who simply wanted something else.

Ahh, thanks Omm and Simic...I had heard that Stieners were a bit prescriptive but someone I know insisted otherwise and I hadn't yet got round to researching it...

Gnomes? WTF?

Hi again MoonFace - yes, it is the judgement bit of the complimenting on looks thing that does the damage, but how do you raise a child who is comfortable in their own skin, regardless of the opinions of others? I'm thinking in the playground specifically... I know the whole approach theoretically raises kids who are confident in their own judgement and less reliant on 'validation' from their peers, but self-esteem and looks are fairly closely interconnected, aren't they? Genuine question, as I know my upbringing gave me major hang-ups in this area (family nickname of 'Chunky' and they wonder why I have food issues in later life ) and I don't know whether feeling good about yourself and feeling good about your looks can, or should, be separated out? My DCs are beautiful to me, so do I tell them that? I want them to know I feel they are beautiful regardless - I'd rather have them rolling their eyes and saying "yeah, but you would say that mum" than feel they are loved despite their looks... The "it's what's on the inside that counts" line implies that the outside's not up to much, it's a consolation rather than an affirmation, iyswim? So should the 'outside' be acknowledged and if so, how?

Hmm WC I really don't know.

I can't help but feel that at the age when they will be aware of looks they will be aware of how their peers look and will (very sadly) rate themself against them.

I remember my mum telling me I was beautifull but I felt uncomfortable with it as I know myself to be distinctly avarage (this is not some sort of false modesty, just realism) Though perhaps her comments have helped on a subconcious level..as I also recall some less favourable remarks but don't feel scarred!

I guess cause I was academic and alternative I didn't put too much store by it anyway.

From what you say I can't see any harm in spontanious compliments.

I just worry that a dc would pick up on a systematic programme to up thier confidence iyswim...but i don't have an alternative suggestion for you...sorry.

Hello,

I´m afraid I had to break off suddenly earlier. I wanted to come back to Chellstar with her post about problems with a behaviourist school. Firstly, it´s quite useful information for me, as I guess we have something like this ahead.
I think too (this being theoretical for me now - dd goes to school next year) that I would not be able to be a part of the school´s reward/punishment programme. I like the idea of talking to the teacher about the rules - even just introducing them to the idea that the rules can be questioned...
I think one thing to remember is the kind of "problem behaviour" which your child´s teacher is discussing is really common and definitely not particular to children of UP parents. And I think you definitely can be proud of the kind of thinking and planning your son shows. I suppose I´m hoping that even though we don´t have the let-out clause of homeschooling, if we have bad luck with one teacher, we might at least the next year get one who is more interested in his/her relationships with each child, than in crowd control and obedience. I did find "Hold on to your kids, why parents need to matter more than peers" (or something like that!) by Neufeld and Mate quite interesting on the subject of teachers. Have any of you read this?

I think it is a personality thing. Like you say Chellstar, your son isn't the only one on the scheme.

French schools rely heavily on reward and punishment and I am too much of a realist and coward to challenge the way things are done. But I haven't had any problems regarding the different styles of discipline at home and at school. Maybe this is because they started school so young (3).

DS told the canteen manager that his mum never punishes him but he is her "pet" so I think she assumed that he is always "a very good boy".

RalphGnu I feel the same as you - I am permentaly tired and grouchy and not the mum I want to be at the moment. Think I am going to hunt for this book in the library as it sounds like the kind of mum I want to be.

I'm glad to see that other mums get angry about peoples comments on DCs apperance! My 2.5 DD1 has just learnt to dress herself and is very proud of the fact that she chooses her own clothes and dresses herself. We recently had to buy some clothes in the next size up so she pretty much contols what she wears (I make sure its weather appropriate!). My poor DD2 wears hand me downs from my nephew and there have be times when I have just gone along with the idea she is a boy . Why should girls be restricted to pink? I partially shop in charity shops because the kids clothes aren't seperated into 'boys' and 'girls' so DD1 isn't pushed into certain choices.

In terms of young childcare I think childminders fit more with UP parenting. My Dc have a wonderful childminder who definately agrees with my style of parenting which is nice for the DCs to have that continuity. I dread them starting school tho.

Weather appropriate??? Weather appropriate????

Monkeyand parrot, I can see you've really thought things through - shopping where clothes aren't separated out, never thought of that! - Dreading school! Yes I understand, wish I had gone with my initial instincts as J webt to a different school initially, and I pulled him out he was soooo unhappy - extremely conditional, and aggressive! I woudl definately say, meet the teachers and go with your gut intuition, NOT the ofsted reports!

Otherside of the chanel - what do you mean by a personality thing - do you mean personality clash - or personality of DS?

Simic, thanks for the reasurance abotu it not being just down to my UP parenting. I will look up that book, sounds really interesting.

Ommmward, didn't know that Steiner schools were like that, I thought they were where children were allowed a lot of choice, so that is ineresting too.

I have to say, that although his school is conitional, his teacher is very nice, and will work with problems, to establish a reason, which is helpful.

I am struggling tonight, as today when I went out with a relative for lunch J had a complete meltdown tantrum, which is unusual, because I asked him to put hi sshoes back on, we were at a garden centre and he had been travelling on the platform underneath in a shopping trolley, we got into loggerheads and it was awful, we don't normally do this, but I think I felt under pressure because of said relative, which just reinforced their belief that the way I am parenting just doesn't work, and that he won't do as he's told. Then he wanted a bigger bag of sweets, which I wasn't goign to buy, again another meltdown, and another because he had to wait for the man to scan the sweets we got! All a bit out of character. I do think that the dynamics between the 3 of us, is such that I may say no to J relative, says he'll be ok let him, I don't challenge them due to the heirachy, then J knows that it's worth making a fuss as he knows I won't challenge to relative! Not sure if that makes sense. But then today I can just feel the disaproval, no words spoken.

I did speak to J tonight, and just sai that it's ok to say no to me, but it is good to give a reason ( to back up his argument) Later I realised he did not want his shoes on as he wanted to get back in to the trolley! so it made sense.

Any ideas on handlign this better???

TIA

Is there a way of editing posts? Just reading through my last there are so many typos!