Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Yes it sounds a bit OTT to not let her wash her hands. It sounds like the sort of thing DH might say 'no' to if he was looking forward to getting the kids in bed so he could have some time alone with me.
But then to be honest, on a school night if it wasn't the first such addition to the bedtime routine, I might also come out with a 'no because it's getting late'.
I think with incidents like that it is best for your relationship to save the 'where's the harm?' for later on and not do say it in front of your DD.

He he FA, I seem to spend my life reminding mine to wash their hands at the essential times. They only time they volunteer is when they want to join in on the cooking eat half the cake mix before it is in the oven

In his defence, DH's reasoning was that it was purely a delaying tactic on DD's part to avoid going to bed... I disagreed, so yeah, perhaps I should have sat on that one til later.

Oh I see what you mean about the delaying tactic idea. I just think it is better to work with your kids than set up conflict.

Otherside I love that kids "helping" with cake making often entirely consists of helping to lick the bowl!!!

DD (6) often accuses me of lying to her. I would appreciate any ideas...

Eg this morning, DS was at a friend's house while I took DS to an appointment in town. Friend is a boy, same age as DD but more interests in common with DS.
I returned to the friends house mid-morning with DS, stopped for a chat while all three kids played in together. Then I went to see the kids and told mine that I was going home as I had some jobs to do at home, they could come home with me now or stay and play with friend. DS wanted to stay, DD started getting ready to come home. While she was doing that, I told the other parents how she has mastered certain laundry tasks.
Just outside the door, DD asks why DS isn't coming and I say 'He chose to stay and play' and reminded her they had had a choice but she could go back inside if she had changed her mind. She got furious with me saying that she hadn't changed her mind, I hadn't given her the choice and I was lying to her. I was a bit surprised at her outburst and said that she couldn't stay if she was going to be like that because it wasn't fair on friends parent. So I picked her up and put her into the car. (She was too angry to talk about things properly and I have a stinking cold and feel drained if I am not sitting down). I then remembered that she was a bit short on sleep and said I thought it would be a good idea for her to have some rest at home. Anyway, we got in the house and immediately she said 'You said you'd play with me' and when I reminded her that I had come home to get on with jobs she went into one again.

Now I'm not worried about the outbursts, I know it's the tiredness, but I am concerned about her regular insistence that I said something other than what I actually said. It is getting to the point where I feel like recording myself because I am beginning to doubt what I have said.

I don't think she is actually meaning that you are a liar. I think what she can't articulate is that when you gave her a choice she was not aware of the full implications of that choice at the time that she made it and therefore she feels that you didn't present the choice fairly to her in a way that she could understand. Thus she is aggrieved. She doesn't want to change her choice because she doesn't want to be seen to have made a mistake. Therefore you have made the mistake.

If you tell her you have jobs to get on with at home, to you that clearly and obviously means that you are not intending to play with dd. But did you say to dd "I will not be playing with you when we get home" or was she supposed to infer this? Was she really as clear as you were that you wouldn't be playing with her at home?

She was tired, you were below par with a cold, easier for stuff to go wrong between you. It sounds like "being called a liar" pressed some kind of hot button for you - I honestly don't think this is what your dd was tryng to say to you.

Once calm has been restored you could ask her in an understanding way if she thought you were going to play with her at home and if she realised that ds was going to stay behind with her friend without her and if you should have explained things better to her.

Just my thoughts, I could be way off though!

Thanks. I'll give that some thought. The bit about what she is inferring is helpful. Perhaps I do need to spell things out more clearly. She doesn't have any problems at school with reading and numbers but she seems to be a bit slow on the uptake with regarding to schedules and what happens next. Eg she was 5 when she stopped asking for 'breakfast' whenever she was hungry and figured out what tomorrow meant. Also I remember when she was little (under 4) we would say we were going somewhere, everyone would be busy getting the necessary stuff ready, eg armbands for the swimming pool etc. About 10 minutes later we'd set off in the car and she would invariably ask 'where are we going?'.

The accusations of lying don't only happen when she is tired. Also she will say 'You said we would do this today' when I haven't said it. I haven't even said 'Maybe' or 'We'll see' to a related proposal because the suggestion hasn't been made. So I think there is something more than misunderstanding. It's like she thinks words can have a power over things that aren't going the way she likes. I don't always react the way I did today. I didn't take her home because she called me a liar, that I am used to. It's because she was so furious that she was being aggressive and I felt I couldn't take her back into the house and say 'DD's changed her mind' while she was tantrumming.

Anyway, we've both had a nap and this afternoon she has learnt to ride her bike without stablisers. Now she just needs to figure out how to stop

Wayhay re the bike! How amazing! My dd (age 11) has had paranoid fear of cycling and only learnt a few months ago!

My 11 year old still genuinely fails to infer stuff that is obvious to me so I thought it might be worth a check in case this is the same for you and your dd! I suspect your dd became aggressive and angry because of communication problems - that's what is behind a lot of toddler tantrums after all.

When your dd says 'You said we would do this today' , how do you respond? Do you respond in the same way as if she had said instead " I would really like to do xx with you today and I feel disappointed that we can't"?

No I don't.

I say 'No I didn't. There's no way I'd have said we were going to do that because [insert the reason].'

And then I say something like 'But it's a great idea, how about we do it on such and such a day' or 'Let's write that idea on the white board so we remember to do do it next time we can'.

How would it go if you pretended she had said " I would really like to do xx with you today and I feel disappointed that we can't"?

Would you have said " I love to spend time doing xx with you and I am sorry that we can't do it today. We can definitely do it on Thursday. How do you feel about that? If she feels cross or disappointed I would say that is a reasonable way to feel and worthy of understanding.

I think sometimes the words kids say aren't exactly the same as the feelings behind them. Nobody likes being called a liar but I don't think this is really what your dd means when she says it . She just loves you and wants more of your time. Its flattering even if its frustrating because the extra time isn't there to give!

Thanks. You're right.

Hello everyone!
I'm writing with a sleep question! My DD is 5. We have happily co-slept for years but now we're getting to the point that it's stopping us sleeping well. The normal routine is both kids go to bed in their own beds with me singing them a few songs and then sitting in their room until they fall asleep. DD is happy for me to tell her I'm going to do the washing up and she'll fall asleep without me present, but DS needs me there. Then some time in the night DD comes and gets into our bed (usually about 12 midnight or 1 am) and some time in the night DS (2years) cries out and I take him into our bed (either this happens at about 11pm or not at all and he sleeps through in his own bed). DD is very restless at night (kicks a lot - either to get rid of the duvet or just like that) but also needs to sleep cuddling me or particularly DH so tight that it wakes us. We're just exhausted at present. Does anyone have any suggestions??

Do you know what's waking DD? I can't suggest much other than the usual nightlight, attachment toy etc...

I was coming here to post for help with DD, age 2... I'm really finding the UP hard at the moment, she was occasionally a bit defiant previously but recently she's just flat out ignoring me when I ask her to do things, she's finding it a bit of a game to do things she's not supposed to, it's really frustrating.

I would speculate that it's a reaction to the past week when we've had to administer eyedrops, and that was fine for day 1 but after that we ran out of 'nice' ways that worked so it was a case of holding her down to get them in. We tried everything else but she had to have them 4 x day and it was taking upwards of 45 mins a time and stressing everyone out, and still we'd end up having to hold her down in the end. Each alternative would work once only, e.g. turning it into a different games, bribing with chocolate, so we'd run out of creativity or time and come back to force - so I can appreciate that her trust is a bit damaged, it felt so horrible having to hold her down while she's screaming "no eyedrops!" but it had to be done to clear up the infection, there was no way around it, no other way of treating it. But she's 2 and just experienced it as the big powerful adults that are usually nice being mean and unpredictable while she was rendered helpless.

So, I think I know WHY she's playing up, but I don't know what to do about it. We seem to be stuck in a cycle now where she pushes and pushes and so we end up having to be more authoritarian than we want to be to function. It's a vicious circle and I don't know how to get out of it. Help!!

Simic - If there is room, can you expand the mattresses in the room where everyone ends up? So, e.g. 1 child sized mattresses to pop your Dd on once she's back to heavily asleep, and a double mattress for whoever is going to end up with the hug monster, and a single mattress for whichever parent got the Lucky Golden Ticket tonight?
I have occasionally slept in a room with various combinations of 4 mattresses, because then everyone gets a decent night's sleep, even if it involves some bed hopping :)

Wildhood chunder - I love your username. Can you find a way of just avoiding making demands on her for a while? Or only ask her to do things that you don't actually mind whether she does or not, so that when she says "no" you can say "oh, ok then". Perhaps, also, make a picture book of a child who is ill and has to have medicine, and a different suggestion on each page for how to make it fun, but the child still ends up crying (a bit like "what is the matter with Mary Jane" where she's sad all the way through but I think there's a happy ending) and the happy ending can be that the infection goes away in the end. Sounds bleargh written out like that, but it might really help a 2-yr old process that kind of trauma.

Thanks both for your replies. I really don´t know what´s waking dd. I will have to try to work it out. I like the idea of extra mattresses - I think that is the way forward for us - we still have the baby bay on our bed - usually for me now! DH is jealous -maybe we need another now the kids are a bit older :)

Wildhood Chunder, you poor things with the eye drops. I remember when dd had an eye infection when she was about that age and it was the same kind of story. It is one of those things which I really don´t know how you do it without force in the end! It is SO hard and I didn´t find a way to explain to a 2 year old why it was really so necessary even though it felt horrid! We got a special sticker page where the child could stick on one square sticker for each dose of eye drops until they had completed the course and completed the sticker-picture. Not particularly UP but it just simply was too hard for our 2 year old.

As for the 2 year old making a game out of doing what she´s not supposed to, I must say, my 2 year old DS is doing that at present without the eye drops. He really finds it funny to do what you´re not supposed to. I think it´s also to do with that he finds things funny which are not as they should be ... shoes on your head etc.. He definitely finds it funny to do what I don´t want - he throws all his pencils on the floor as a "joke". I agree with Ommward that I think it´s best to ignore as much as possible. I also make as much into a nice activity - he does actually love tidying and cleaning up. I made the mistake of making - literally - a song and dance the other day of him looking in all the cupboards with things like rice in them which - at that moment - I really didn´t want him to empty. Ever since he keeps looking in the cupboards so that I do the song and dance! Oops!
I think this is a phase where it´s best to really ask carefully if it is really worth the battle. But still, I think it´s worth modelling assertive behaviour if he does anything where I feel I have to draw a line - when he hits me (other nice phase at present) I do explain to him about not hurting etc. etc..

Thanks for the suggestions and sympathy! I will try the book idea tomorrow with DD, I think she'd like that. She was wanting to play "going to the doctors" at bedtime so I might do a bit of roleplay tomorrow with her if she still wants to, which might help her process it a bit more.

I am glad to hear it's not just us that found it impossible to find a "nice" way to administer eye drops, I was wondering if I had missed something obvious, but as you say Simic, I think they are just too small to connect something slightly unpleasant happening now with the prevention of something worse. I really hope we don't have to go through that again anytime soon. DD's not the only one traumatised by it!

We had a glimmer of light at bathtime with the games/doing what not supposed to though, DD threw one of the bottles of shampoo on the floor and I asked her not to, so she then threw them all on the floor. I was just tired and sighed and said "DD please don't do that as I have to pick them all up and I don't like having to pick all them up again." And she promptly picked them up for me! That took me by surprise, I was expecting it to go in one ear and out the other!

Hello, a couple of things:

1. what do you do when a DC is doing something destructive/unacceptable etc, such as hitting you, throwing things till they break etc, without threatening or isolating them, or similar?? I mean, you can't just keep letting them whack you, can you? Today I ended up taking DD and DS2 into her room and sitting leaning against the closed door so he couldn't come in. If I'd let him in, he would just have kept doing it . I'm well aware that many would see this as the perfect opportunity to use a threat, timeout etc, but it's just not for me. DS almost 6 and though this is pretty rare, he still sometimes gets into the "zone" where he's totally defiant and obstinate ... I'm very much of the mindset that situations like these can usually be headed off at the pass before they get to this stage, with skilful parenting, and am happy to admit to many failures on this front, but am constantly looking for ways to be better! I can usually identify where I could have avoided the meltdown when I look back over it, but in this case, I really can't.

2. would anyone be interested if I set up a private FB group for UP support? There have been a few times recently I've wanted to post on this thread but worried the replies would get lost and confusing as they're all on the one thread ... on FB we can start threads via the "Discussions" tab and keep everything neat and tidy! Please PM me if interested - happy to set it up if I get enough interest!

Can I give you a few scenarios I need UP advice on.

1. DS likes to go a particular way home (both in the car and walking) I usually remember but very occasionally I will forget and start walking the wrong way. He then has a tantrum cos we've gone the wrong way. Would you turn around go back the way you've come and go the way he wants or would you just say we're going this way today and try and distract them by looking out of the window or at things along the way? Sometimes I don't really have time to turn around cos I need to be back to get ready for work.

2. DS likes to choose his seat on the bus and has a tantrum if someone is sat on it. Sometimes the person offers to move. Should I accept the offer to stop the tantrum or should I tell them it's ok and to stay where they are cos DS shouldn't get used to people giving into his tantrums.

3. DS wants to walk through the park with no shoes and socks on but there is often broken glass in the park. Do I make him put his shoes on which will result in a tantrum or do I let him walk through the park barefoot and risk him treading on broken glass?

4. In the winter it was bitterly cold and snowing and DS wanted to wear shorts, a tshirt and sunglasses. I didn't let him but he screamed for 2 hours solid. Should I have just let him go outside dressed like that?

5. It's not a problem yet but DS refuses to wear a sun hat and sun cream even though last year he had picked his own hat, picked coloured sun scream spray and been allowed to draw pictures on himself and rub it in. Do I take away privilidges (SP?) of going outdoors and hope he will eventually give in when he makes the connection this means no park/playing in the garden/day trips/holidays/beach trips etc. What if he's perfectly happy not going outdoors all summer? And this isn't practical for when I look after my godchildren or cousins cos then they are being punished for DS' refusal to wear sun cream and a hat. There's not many shaded areas where I live only the woods and they are a good 10/15 minute walk away. We could avoid the sun between 11 and 3 but I'm not sure if you would still burn outside of these hours when it's in the 20s? Also this isn't any good for whole days out or when I can't time our outings around the midday sun. Is it just a case of pinning him down and trying to do it as quick as possible and then hoping he will get fed up of that and start choosing to do it himself and if he doesn't just continue pinning him down?

6. We also have tantrums when it comes to washing. This includes wiping hands and face, baths, showers, hair washing, brushing teeth, nappy changes and now changing clothes he has had accidents in cos he's not in nappies during the day. I have tried bath puppets, bath toys, bath crayons, making a game out of it, distracting him with singing, getting him to do it as fast as he can etc but nothing has worked. We only have a bath and hair wash once a week but even top and tailing in the morning and at night results in him screaming blue murder.

7. Running around in inappropiate places and running away from me in shops. Do I just restrain him (which would definitely result in a tantrum) if he won't stop when I ask him to and explain why?

8. Refusal to leave somewhere despite giving a countdown. I usually end up carrying him which exhausts me and hurts my back, forcing him into pushchair, dragging him down the road or calling his bluff and pretend I am going without him which makes him get really upset and then usually come running after me.

Any help appreciated :)

1. In situations like this I say "Sorry DS, it was Mummy's turn to choose this time. It's your turn next time." I use this if I press the button at a crossing or on the bus without thinking or if I pay for something in a shop (he likes to "give man the money") which you can't always undo because it is inconvenient or annoying for others. If he's tired (and the first few times I said it) he sometimes still kicks off but usually he's now fine with this and accepts it.

2. Again I'd probably say "No, it's that lady's turn to sit there today. It isn't your seat, they are for everybody. Maybe you can sit there next time." Also remind him of expected behaviour before you get on the bus. Perhaps the morning that you need to get on the bus just bring it up - remind him of the incident when someone else was sat there. Validate - "I expect you were disappointed that you couldn't sit on your favourite seat. Did you feel a bit cross about that as well?" and then explain that the seats are for sharing and everyone has a turn, and then ask him what he thinks he should do if somebody is in the seat today. Then either agree if he suggests it or offer the suggestion that you can sit on a different seat, and maybe he can sit on your lap and look out of the window, or next to the button and he gets to press that, or something. When you are waiting for the bus remind him of your expectations. "DS remember what we talked about this morning? What do we do if someone is sitting in the seat you want?" and then state what you want him to do ie find another seat quietly and sit on that. And he is allowed to be sad about it but it would be better if he could tell you with words, because other people don't like it if he is screaming on the bus. And then I know UP is against praise but I think acknowledging he has followed your instructions and saying something like "DS, that was very polite of you to choose a different seat and not ask the lady to move even though you were a bit sad about not being able to sit there" would be good. I think if someone offers to move that's up to them TBH. (Also I'd do the acknowledgement thing either quietly or after you've left the bus just in case it makes the person feel uncomfortable or comes across as passive aggressive!)

(I've just noticed your DS is 4 so some of my wording might be a bit "young" but the principle is the same, I think, or could be adapted easily)

3. Would be a non-negotiable for me. You don't know what he might catch from the glass, and/or the cut could get infected. Sharp stones, his choice - glass, no. But perhaps offer some light shoes like crocs or flip flops? OR - could you trust him to look very carefully where he is going and tread away from the glass? I might consider it in that case.

4. I probably would, yes! But take warm clothes for when he changes his mind. Make him carry them if you don't think he would drop them in the snow.

5. I insist on sun cream but not a hat (though I do try with the hat) - someone suggested to me last year to put the hat on him and then get everyone to tell him how cool he looks with a hat on. Didn't really work. If he has short hair the spray sun cream will protect the scalp to an extent, if he has long hair that will also help protect his head and face, but the cream will make it look greasy and horrible and not go on anyway. Try to stay in the shade as much as possible.

6. No idea. It's a very very slow process trying to get DS okay with baths. He doesn't get too dirty and he'll happily wash his hands so it's just his bum, feet, hair and face really. Just got the hang of sitting down in the bath so that's his bum sorted :) I'm just going with no pressure and make it fun (toys etc), but his hair desperately needs washing, I've noticed it smells a bit doggy now :( Going to get it cut and see if that helps. At least it will be quicker to do if not. He's just about starting to tolerate me wiping his head (hair) with a flannel so hoping to progress from that to gently dripping the water from the flannel. The hair has self cleaned itself up until a couple of months ago, it sounds awful, but it hasn't seen shampoo for almost a year it did look lovely and fluffy and nice though.

7. I was going to say if he can't handle the responsibility of the freedom, he doesn't get the freedom, but at 4 that's harder to enforce. I did hear a lovely story online once, I take no credit for this - but the mum got her children to watch the film or read the book Curious George. I haven't seen it but from this story I got the gist it puts a positive spin on George's curiosity and energy but also shows it getting him into trouble. So after hearing the story the mum talked to the children about the times when they had "monkey energy" and how it can be a good thing to have monkey energy and be lots of fun to use it, but that sometimes it wasn't appropriate and it could cause all sorts of problems

Scarlett - short answer because I need to sleep now! But I'd say immediate damage control, so remove the weapon, remove the victim/breakable, or remove him, whichever is most practical and least disruptive to everyone.

I know what you mean about them being "in the zone" and not listening to anything - so in this case the discussion comes later. Debrief and problem solve. So when they are calm, ask them what happened from their POV and validate, see if you can give them a word for the feeling if they aren't sure what feeling it was. Then explain if there are any explanations - e.g. if they were hitting you because they were cross about not having ice cream, talk about why you can't have ice cream all the time. Sometimes there won't be an explanation or a reason, it was just an outburst. That's okay. They just need to learn different ways of expressing that emotion before it gets to boiling point. So then you can brainstorm/problem solve different ways of either dealing with that specific situation, or expressing that particular emotion. This is in How To Talk so I won't go over it now - the important thing is don't dismiss her ideas even if they are ridiculous or impractical. Write them all down and then go through each, crossing out the ones you or she strongly disagree with and hopefully at the end you'll be left with a short list of acceptable coping strategies. If she wants to, you can then make them into a poster (with words or pictures) to remind her, or she can write them in a book, or you can just leave the list somewhere safe in case she needs to look at it.

And that wasn't short at all -.- Sorry.

I started my UP/gentle discipline blog BTW if anyone is interested :) Suggestions for posts are always welcome too. respectfullyraising.blogspot.com/

Also - nappyaddict - if you aren't sure about the hair cleaning itself, see picture on my profile called DS age 2.1 - that was somewhere around 6 months without shampoo, and not often even managing to wash with water.

Thanks Bertie - you've been really really helpful. Just a couple of things I want to clarify :)

With number 1) would you go back the "right" way or just say mummy has chosen this time and let him have a tantrum over it.

With number 2) if someone offered to move would you accept or decline the offer?

With 7) and 8) would you still insist on the use of a buggy if he refuses to walk or keeps running off? And just pick him up and put him in it if he refuses to leave somewhere? He wouldn't willingly get in it though, he still goes very stiff and I have to bend him into it and then he will scream all the way home.

BertieBotts How often do you manage to just wash it with water? What do you do if he gets food etc in it?

Have you tried just washing it with plain water to get rid of the doggy smell? Or putting a tiny amount of shampoo in the bath water and using that water to wet a flannel and wipe over his hair?