Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Thanks both, some great afvice there. I will definitely try taking him to the toilet like that, ommmward. With the school thing - I am happy for him to start in sept with all his peers, it is literally just the potty training! Eaurouge - the book looks great. Thanks. The thing was, he wasn't angry he's wet himself, just wanted to carry on playing, it was me lifting him up to take him out of the soft play that made him so cross, but he was soaking, I had no choice. Think I may resort to pull ups when out and about for a while.

Ommmward, I must have crossed posts with you earlier. Thanks for the tip about playing, DD1 definitely enjoys quite physical play so I'll try wearing her out that way

Hi all

I would like some advice on how to deal with an elder child who keeps interfering when I am disciplining a younger child.

DD naturally expresses herself in a rude and bossy manner. I have been (unless she is beyond herself with fatigue) insisting on her speaking to me politely before I do things for her. I think she doesn't realise how she sounds. Sometimes she'll just concentrate and say the thing in a pleasant tone of voice. Other times it annoys her and she gets even ruder before she remembers that it get anywhere last time! (BTW I'm quite happy for her to do the thing for herself if that's easier for her than asking politely)

Anyway, when she is repeating her request in an even ruder fashion and I am waiting for her to get over being cross about being asked to reformulate her request, DS (8) just cannot refrain from saying things to her like 'That's still really rude!' which winds her up even more. (She's not stupid and knows she's being rude once it has been pointed out once). I keep asking DS to keep out of it but he just doesn't stop telling her off and saying things like 'You're never going to get an apricot now' and I end up feeling angry at him for interfering and making her furious to the point of screaming at him when I know full well than when he is not around trying to parent her, that she will reasonably rapidly speak to me in the way she is spoken to.

Am I being unreasonable to expect DS to butt out? How would you deal with the interfering child? Or would you just concentrate dealing better with you own feelings about it? (If so, how?)

before she remembers that it didn't get her anywhere last time!

I can't really help with that one because I don't insist on good manners, I just model them. My children have just picked up that "thank you" and "you're welcome" are part of the conversational code, and "please" is much more optional, because that's how I function myself.

Is the lack of manners something they pick up at school or something? (we home ed, if you hadn't guessed)

Thanks for responding.

My query is not about the manners, it's about other children interfering in a discipline moment. DD will never come aside with me when invited to, so quite often DS will hear what I am saying.

On Monday evening I had a chat with DS about it. I pointed out that by acting like her parent he makes her cross at him and all she remembers from the incident is that her brother made her cross, rather than to speak to the rest of the family like we are human beings. I hope it works.

On the Manners thing though, I'm not insisting on 'please' or 'thank you', I just want to be spoken to civilly.

I don't think it's to do with school, just the way they are.

DS doesn't always remember please and thank you but 99% of the time asks nicely. Yesterday I would have said he just picked it up from our example but thinking hard about it now I remember teaching him about a pleasant tone of voice and an unpleasant one but it was a brief episode when he was 4.
But DD often speaks as if the rest of us in the house are dirt. Think about how unpleasant you can make 'Give me an apricot' sound and you'll get an idea. I can't accept being spoken to like that. Like I said, she can go and get the apricot herself if she wants.

There's the playful parenting-esque approach of turning the tone you can't bear into a big joke and running with it as a game? Don't know if something along those lines would work. She's probably too old for you to start crawling on the floor to kiss her feet because you are clearly her slave. Or maybe not?

Or there's that thing of hearing the need rather than the way the question is asked. If you can manage that every time you're a better woman than I... but I think that'd be your perfect-parent-Kabat-zinn way of approaching it.

what did your ds say when you talked about it?

can he articulate why he does it?

if ds does the get me an apricot thing, i say to him
'please lovely gorgeus mummy' and make it silly

i do think it is important to speak kindly, though i don't insist on please or thank you, it's more that what you do is appreciated, especially when it's something they could easily do for themselves.

if it's something totally impossible for them to do, i think i mostly just do it.

I'll give the playful thing a go again. (Last time I tried it made her cross. Lots of thing make her cross!)

I haven't asked DS why he joins in being a parent. Good idea!

Just marking my place for a good read through later, dd only 4 weeks old so I've hopefully got a bit of time to explore patenting styles yet! I like the sound of UP though

Anyone still out there?

I have a 2.5 yo DS who up until a month ago seemed to be blessed with a very mild, sweeet, empathatic nature - I took a hardline AP approach with him and I liked to think that it had really paid off. You'll notice the past tense. I then had DD when he was 2.2, and after the first couple of months, he turned into a bit of a nightmare. Behaviours I had never seen before, like hitting, shouting, being really rough with DD. At first I was mostly managing his behaviour with clear threats, ie 'if you don't sit down to eat, I will take your tractor away' and then following through on the next infringement, which seemed to have great short-term results. Then I read UP and realised what I was doing (also frighteningly mimicking how I was parented myself, in a very harsh authoritarian style), and have been trying to change my approach. I just feel terrible most of the time - he was my beloved baby and still needs me so much, but his behaviour is pushing me away - when he hurts DD I want to smack him (I was smacked as a child and am determined not to smack mine, but it is frightening how quickly I revert to what is familiar under stress I guess).

My main struggle is: how do I get DS to respect DD's space and right not to be hurt?

Any ideas? I think UP in general is toughest when they are so young and not verbally sophisticated.

Oh you poor things!

Go easy on him, go easy on yourself. The arrival of the second child in a family makes the arrival of a first look like a walk in the park. I look back at that friendly but ever-so-slightly condescending look that Mums of 2+ used to give me when I was pregnant with my first, and now I completely get it. Those women have been through the wringer!

Best advice I was given: do not expect your first to be thrilled about the existence of your second child ever. If they become friends at some point, then that's a bonus.

When the second is 12 weeks, you will be thinking that as a family you are actually not going to survive this experience. By six months, you will be beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. By 18 months, you'll actually have something of a family rhythm and routine going.

Main thing is just to get the baby out of the way, and then distract distract distract. Lots and lots of attention for the older one, lots of fun treats. Shove the baby in an Ergo carrier on your back and forget about her until it is time to feed and change her :-D there's plenty of cabaret going on - she probably doesn't need entertaining much.

Don't expect him to respect her space. Use structural discipline - remove the baby from reach, use yourself as a human shield, offer much by way of pillow fighting. Don't leave them alone together for a moment (and don't worry - there will of course come a time when you can do so, but give it time)

Thanks omm, some good practical advice there. She's mostly in a carrier actually but on my front - up until now she hasn't really had the head control for a back carry, but maybe now is a good time to switch. Having her on front makes it difficult to physically interact with DS as much as I would like to.

He blatantly slapped her twice today - I stayed calm and tried to explain why we didn't hurt other people, but I don't think he really understands.

Also forgot to say it's just me parenting atm, my OH has a seasonal type of work that means he is out most of the day at this time of year... roll on October. Bedtime etc will be a breeze when there are two of us!

I've just found this thread; I didn't know that anyone parented like this on Mumsnet.
We have 4 children, aged 9 to 3 and I try to parent them positively but struggle with it. DH isn't convinced, he still believes they should do as they are told because he said so:(
Have you all seen this site There is lots of good practical advice on it.

With that sort of slapping, I would try to stay really calm and just say "no thank you!" and get the baby out of reach. Or rather than the negative, take his hand (if he's willing) and help him stroke the baby gently, just saying "gently, gently, ahhhh" or "let's stroke her like a cat, gently, ahhh"

Minimise the words and the rationalising, for my money.

That was really interesting thanks...ds is 17m and dc2 is due in a few weeks time. Someone has posted a usefull link on the latest page of the "is there a breastfeeding while pregnant thread already?" thread on the bf board. Sorry i'm on my phone so can't link.

that site looks great thanks mymumdom. Have bookmarked for a proper look later.