Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Here's an interesting link for us I am not raising obedient children (that is, the author of the article, not me. Although I am not really raising obedient children either!)

I think it's really important to examine the extent to which we expect our children to live according to our agenda. An awful lot of "you must do X" actually boils down to "it is more convenient for me if you do X"

And sometimes, the out-of-the-box routes our children take have wonderful consequences. Nothing like a good game of pretend-that-half-a-bag-of-flour-is-snow in the kitchen to a) remind one to sweep the kitchen floor afterwards, probably with childish help and b) encourage the itchy floury children to have a bath complete with hair rinsing without any parental intervention :-)

Thanks mumsnetters - having a terrible time with stressed parenting response to bad dd behaviour - making situation even worse - I'll certainly have a look at this book as a starting point for reflecting on how we can improve things!

Am presently reading the book, so want to mark my place on this thread too.

Look forward to being able to join in discussions. x

Ommmward,

You make such an important point with the example of the pretend-that-half-a-bag-of-flour-is-snow game ... I need reminders like that, that that is how I really want to live - a bit floury but happy! :o)
I think why I make my life so hard most of the time is that what I learnt as a child stops me seeing how simple it is to have fun. My major achievement as a child was to learn to follow rules and be obedient. I completely internalized the horror of "someone's pouring flour on the floor". Having a good time pouring flour is dead easy. Sweeping the floor afterwards is dead easy. I think what you say is the fantastic short cut! - I don't have to go through the whole unpicking of my submission to authority, fear of doing "the wrong thing", fear of myself as a figure of authority. I can just pour flour on the floor! Whether the kids are there or not! :)

Get the flour bag out, right now lady :)

I used to spend a lot of my time surrounded by flour/sand, without a cross word, but since ds was about 3 I'm finding it hard to do that. To be honest he is extremely compliant, probably because we have allowed him to make a lot of decisions. I know I say no for convenience sake a lot of time.

Has anyone read Everyday Blessings the Inner Work of Mindful Parenting?

The thing that I'm struggling with is outside influences. My ds keeps talking about being bad at this or good at that. I read UP a couple of years ago and so this is not something I've encouraged, but he's been telling me to 'say that's really good' or 'say well done'. I must admit that I do when he tells me to. I just don't know how to get out of this.

Maybe it would be worth reading Carol Dweck´s book about self theories (I´ve mentioned this before on Mumsnet and probably on this thread - sorry for repeating myself so much!).
I think Carol Dweck gives a really good approach for this whole subject.
Her advice is that when kids can do something easily, instead of praising the completion of the task (or whatever) you just say "well, that was obviously too easy for you - let´s find a harder challenge that you can really get your teeth into" and when they are struggling with something, say things like "hey, you´re really working at this!". Maybe Again, you could try approaching it like this.
Her opinion is that there are people who think that intelligence or ability are something which you have a finite amount of - you were born with it. Once you get to the end of your supply, that´s that. You can´t do it. There are other people who believe that ability or intelligence are like a muscle - the more you train it, the bigger it gets and the more you can do.
People in the first group are usually very able people used to being able to do things without trying. But when they find something they can´t do effortlessly, they think that they just innately can´t do it and give up.
People in the second group are less interested in things they CAN do - that doesn´t build up their muscle - if they meet something which they can´t do the first time they try, they rev up and get going for the challenge, thinking about how to solve the problem, how to learn the skill and feeling all the time that they are building up their "ability" muscles! (of course how I´ve described it here is very black and white - it´s much better to read Carol Dweck´s book!).
Dweck makes the point that it doesn´t matter which theory is closer to the "truth" about ability and intelligence. Kids who keep trying when they can´t do something have an advantage throughout their lives.
I talk to my dd (5 years) sometimes describing the second image: I´ve told her that I think being able to do something or being clever is like being a fast runner - the more you run around, the faster your legs get, well the more you try to do things you couldn´t do before, and keep trying and trying and trying, the better you get. I have a few examples of when she couldn´t do something but kept trying and trying.

The best parenting advice from the world's finest parenting expert.

"just... DIP YER FACE IN"

She's hilarious

"Everyday Blessings" irritated the hell out of me. How many hours of meditation do you do Mr Enlightened Guru? And your wife was minding the children all that time, hmmm? Grrr.

(yeah, I may have been somewhat premenstrual when I read it. I'm usually extremely into zen stylee approaches!)

Marking my place for later

ommmward

Thanks Simic, that's very helpful. I started with this a little today. I'm thinking of not following him down every alley. By that I mean that I don't want to reinforce the 'very good' comments he is having me repeat these days or 'say don't do that again'. Is he looking for boundaries or is he testing whether I really do accept him?

Firstly I must apologise for posting here when I haven't read the entire book, I did start it (and "how to talk") but DD2s arrival last month has reduced the time & brain power I have available to read!
I wondered if amy of you had any UP strategies for dealing with a situation I had yesterday?

It was the first trip out for me with the two DDs on foot by myself. I got DD2 (4weeks) out of the car & settled in the pram,then got DD1 (2.5yrs) out. As I got her out I explained that we were going to walk up the road to meet GPs and then we were going to a shop to do some painting (footprints on mugs for fathers day) As soon as I got her out of the car she tried to run off (unlike her, perhaps she was excited about seeing GP?) so I stopped her & said "no running because there are cars which are dangerous" but she tried to struggle free... I repeated the "no running" thing and explained that as there were cars around she would need to either hold my hand or wear her ladybird rucksack (reins) at which point she lays on the ground screaming! I tried distracting her but ended up carrying her. It took her the best part of 10mins to then be persuaded out of her grump by grandad pulling faces at her (while i carried her to the shop) and we then had a lovely time painting
So where did I go wrong? How can i handle this better in the future? Am I expecting her to understand too much? (I tried to keep my language clear & sentences short.)
She has walked next to her buggy holding my hand for an hour before, but not very often (only once since DD2s arrival) & never in that location.

Should I just expect stuff like this for the next few weeks/months as she's adjusting to life with DD2? Should I have asked her if she wanted to walk?

I've got a buggy board ordered, any tips on how I can better handle our first journey out on that?!

TIA & sorry for long post!

I think the buggy board is probably a good way around it - if she's excited about that, then hopefully she'll be pleased to ride on it.
I can understand her excitement at seeing GPs and that your hand was a poor alternative to running up the road to meet them.
It's all easier said than done but I would try to plan it in future that GPs meet you at the car (the wonders of mobile phones???) or at home, or in the park and try to avoid the situation where you get out of the car and there's a busy traffic situation between you and something very exciting (eg. GPs)!
Otherwise, maybe talking to her while you're in the car about what happens when you get out. Along the lines of: "when we get out of the car, there will be lots of other cars driving very fast. You have got a very important job to do. Your job is to stand and hold onto the pram while I get DD2 into the pram." Then once you've got DD2 into the pram, get down to eye level, hold both her hands and say "now you've got a new job, you have to hold onto (pram, whatever) until GP picks you up".
I can't remember how big my dd was when I started doing this kind of thing. Might be too old for yours. What I found useful was me having reins...
Not putting reins on her, but me having something (with me it was always a trailing strap on my rucksack) for her to hold onto at all times so that we always stayed close together in a busy situation. You could even put on her ladybird rucksack yourself as a joke. The problem is that these kind of situations are always so highly stressed with busy traffic that you don't have the palette of techniques that you would do at home or something. I'd try to meet gps in a park or somewhere if possible!

Thanks simic you've given me loads of good pointers there. At the time I thought that mentioning the GPs would be a good idea as it would make her more likely to want to go, but as soon as I typed my post I realised what had happened in her little head!

Am looking forward to wearing the ladybird rucksack this weekend!

Can I bump this thread again? I just have

I think I posted a while ago and I can't remember what I said so I'll just put the basics- I have 2 DDs. DD1 is 2.8yo, DD2 is 15 wo. DD1 is going through a rough patch at the moment, I suppose the arrival of DD2 is a lot for her to cope with (although she is crazy about her new sister).

I've been avoiding playgroup and the like because she's hitting and pushing. I've been trying to teach her how to express her feelings in a non-violent way and bought a book about different emotions (think it's a bit beyond her at the moment but she loves the activities in it).

She's very highly strung and dramatic so I'm keen to find a way to get through this that is sensitive to her personality. I know this may seem unconventional or ineffective to a lot of people so I'm lucky to have DH and my mum on side.

She doesn't sleep either so I'm knackered all the time and I just need to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks for reading :)

PS I haven't read the book yet but I just ordered it.

Have answered you on your other thread EauRouge as your situation sounds similar to mine although re the sleep thing- have you dropped her nap yet? My DD1 started sleeping better when we dropped this and nightweaned during pregnancy.

Can I just say hi on this thread for now(wasn't sure of the ettiquette as quite new to mumsnet).

I have read Kohn, Aldort, Faber and Mazlish and regard myself as attempting a form of UP(AP with my babies then gravitated towards this as eldest became a toddler). I don't use sticker charts or naughty steps anyway.

This thread is a great read and one I'll be watching carefully.

Hello :) Thanks, I just read your reply on the other thread. I'm not posting on the other thread now, it's become a discussion on different parenting styles which is not really what I needed. What I needed was a reply just like yours and Albrecht's, that I'm not the only one and that it gets better

Yes, DD1 dropped her nap a few months ago although she will still sleep in the car sometimes. She was night-weaned prior to me getting pregnant with DD2 but she still didn't sleep any better and once DD2 arrived and was feeding all night I didn't feel that I could tell DD1 that she couldn't have any (tandem feeding and co-sleeping with both, that's a whole different can of worms!).

Sleep is a total nightmare (sometimes literally). Very occasionally she will go off at 7.30ish without much of a fight but last night it took over 2 hours to get her to sleep. She seems to have nightmares a fair bit, I've tried making sure the room isn't too hot, dousing her pillow in lavender oil and making sure she's hydrated but it still happens. She's just not a sleeper! When she's a teenager I will relish her sleeping all day

Agree re the other thread!

That's a shame as my DD was terrible at going to bed until she dropped her nap. She now goes to sleep very quickly but I realise I'm lucky. However how do you juggle your baby for two hours whilst you settle her. I'm impressed. I feed DD1 to sleep lying down and DD2 will usually feed on top of me for a bit but gets a bit squiggly after 10 mins or so so I can't lie with DD1 for over an hour like I used to when she still napped.

On the co-sleeping/tandem feeding thing, I did co-sleep for a year with her and part co-sleep until about 2.5 but although I'm still bf two in the day I knew I couldn't cope with two in the night once DD2 was born so OH started to resettle her in the night and she now goes through to him when she wakes and I co-sleep with DD2 in another room.

I'm wondering if you/the baby is keeping her awake and she is getting over-tired in the day due to a poor night's sleep. Does she rev up or slow down in the evenings. Is she rubbing eyes, yawning showing obvious signs of tiredness. If you just keep her up later until she is ready would this help. Sometimes it's more frustrating lying down trying to get them to sleep than it is keeping them downstairs for a bit longer and trying when you'd have more chance of success.

Do you have blackout blinds(I find this helped enormously).

I am amazed at your DD's stamina though as my DD is exhausted by about 6. She is up at 6am though but I do prefer a longer evening and she's never been one to lie in even if she does go to bed later.

Those days of 2 hour bedtime routines are hell though.

Stamina is right, I am so exhausted by 9pm and she's bouncing around saying she wants to go and play outside . We've just rigged up some blackout curtains and it seems to have helped a bit.

I'm not sure if it's me or the baby waking her up, every time I remember waking up in the night it's usually because of DD1. DD2 usually only wakes up once or twice (jackpot!).

I did try getting DD1 into her own room when I was pregnant but there was no change in her sleeping pattern and I got too knackered going back and forth between my room and hers several times a night so I gave up. I was trying to get more sleep, not less!

Yes, it's tricky BF both when you're lying down. Most nights I will feed DD2 and leave her downstairs with DH while I get DD1 to sleep, the nights when he's working late or playing hockey are sometimes awful, sometimes not. It's so unpredictable! I might just try keeping her up but I'm nearly always ready for bed before she is

Hi, I have 2 issues I need some help with if anyone has time/any ideas please! My DS was 3 last month. We try to generally follow more of a UP approach though we don't follow it to the letter.

Issue 1) Potty training! He has to be trained by Sept when he starts school. We started a couple of weeks ago and when we're home he generally uses the potty or toilet. It's when we're out anywhere! I'll remind him to go, he says "no, I don't need to" - then wets himself/poos his pants! It's every time, but I know he knows as he is fine at home! I don't really want to get into the whole star chart thing as I'm not into rewards/punishments, but I don't really know how to handle this!

2. Hitting - I have asked about this before but he hits us in anger still and I have no idea what to do. Today we were in a soft play, he wet himself, I said he had to come and get changed he said "no" and screamed, he was wet so I had to pick him up and carry him to the toilets and he hit me numerous times! I was annoyed and just took him home when he was changed. But he hit me again when I was trying to get him in the car! Usually talking and explaining works wonders, but it isn't with his hitting and I don't want to tolerate violence, especially at his age. Any recommendations?!

EauRouge - if your older child is hitting and pushing, you could try some really full on rumpus play with her. I sometimes see Dads doing this stuff, swinging their child around really high, throwing them onto the bed (sounds violent but doesn't hurt anyone), pillow fighting, wrestling, tickle fights etc etc etc. This can be mightily amusing for a younger sibling also.

Cat98 can't really help you with the potty training. Some children are ready to potty train in time for a 4-and-a-bit school start, some aren't. Hasn't been relevant for us - we home educate, and that allowed potty training to go at child's pace much more. I think I wouldn't remind him to go, but be really matter of fact. "I have to go to the loo now. Come on." and you both squeeze into the cubicle, and you go and then you say "ok, your turn now and then we'll wash our hands" - sometimes there's a way we can be really matter-of-fact about what is going to happen next, and having got the child to the cubicle for the parent's benefit means that the annoying play interruption thing has already happened.

And hitting - trying to keep parental calm, and then just "no thank you" and move far enough away that you don't get hit? Making sure you are really listening to what is happening, and head the anger off earlier? Change the wet clothes in situ rather than taking him away to change them? Wear pull ups while you are out and about? It really sounds like the potty training is a right stress. You know that he doesn't legally have to be in full time education in school or otherwise until the term after he turns 5 (in England and Wales), yeah?

I'm going through the hitting thing with DD1 at the moment although she is a bit younger. At the moment I'm trying to teach her about different emotions so she can say "I am angry" and hopefully she will not feel the need to hit then. I got her this book which is a bit old for her but it's helping a bit I think. Have you tried acknowledging that he's angry or upset that he wet himself?

We're going through a similar thing with nappy changes, DD1 does not want a nappy change when she's done a poo but then she's not quite ready for potty training. It's annoying but it'll pass. I guess that's not much help for you when you need your DS to be dry by Sept! But I've not done the potty training thing yet so someone else will know better than me. He's probably just too distracted when you're out.