Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Nappyaddict, re the stones, is it the noise he likes? How about a money-box and some pennies, is he old enough for that? Have you got a doormat to protect your hall behind your letterbox?

Yes we've got a doormat now. Money box is a good idea thanks :)

wildhoodchunder isn't 2 and a bit the classic age for food choices to get really limited? Certainly my experience every time - one feels so smug about how "little Tarquin will eat anything" and then suddenly he won't any more. And then it all gradually comes back into the repertoire over the next few years as long as it's put in front of him regularly and is nbd whether he eats it or not.

nappyaddict some of my family are happy to have mixed food types on one plate; others are not. I'll often put the veg I want to eat in a bowl and then faff around quietly waiting to see if anyone else wants some. If not I eat it myself. Of I'll put a pan of broccoli on the table and people can help themselves.

But there are other things where I will put a plate with a little bit of one type of food in front of someone. If they get going with it, I just quietly keep it stocked up until they've had enough - much less intimidating than a massive helping. And foods that I know someone hasn't ever eaten, or hasn't eaten for some years, I will tend to put a tiny helping in front of them at an in-between-y time when they are busy with something else. If they try it, fine; if not, fine - it's all a gradual process of familiarisation (a really good friend advised me to expect such a process to take 6 months with any individual food. It never has taken that long yet, and so I have always been pleasantly surprised at how quickly whatever the horror-comic-how-can-you-expect-me-to-eat-that-muck food becomes an enjoyable part of daily life).

THere are obvious reasons for pudding fixation - sugar, innit? And then you go down one of two roads. You either decide to let it go and meet those requests for 6 weeks and see if the child has had enough by the end of it and starts self-regulating, or you control the intake. As I said upthread, I tend to control sugar intake by the icecreams/chocolate bars living in the shop, so that it's an expedition to go and get them; or by the sugar living in the cupboard until we all make cakes together. So that those things are an activity as well as the enjoyment of the eating. Radical unschoolers would be completely child-led on that stuff I think, but I am not quite brave enough.

She's just never let us hold her hand. We built up to more and more busy roads as she was able to walk longer, but our pavements are wider here and we keep us between the road and her.

and as I said she's not quite at the tantrum about that kind of stage yet

IslaValargeone Do you mean how does your child cope with things being one way at home and different at school/grandparents/activities?

It hasn't been a problem for us. DCs are at a French school where rewards/punishments are absolutely the way teachers and canteen staff control the children. Sometimes DCs ask for punishments to be instated at home but only when they don't like a siblings behaviour, not for themselves . They don't seem to have any difficulty accepting and respecting the rules of the classroom.

Because they are at school we do have bed times and other house rules which you might not find in the homes of other posters on this thread.

The only time I have ever felt the way we might raise our children could be causing a problem for anyone else is with one in-law who finds it irritating that DS so often asks why when asked/told to do something. (His own children are being taught to comply without questioning their father)

PenguinArmy Oh right where do you live?

We are currently in California but we're moving back to the UK in August.

Ooooh I'm jealous. How long have you lived there?

Hello! Thought I'd introduce myself. I have 2 DDs, one nearly 5 one just turned 2. We have always been UPers, just found this thread though.

Thanks ommward - I'll keep putting the stuff in front of her and try and chill then. I wish I knew why the sudden refusal though, even if it is a universal stage... is it a control thing, or what?

On another note, does anyone know of any good books on toddler developmental stages? We've outgrown the baby books, would be good to know what to expect... or is ignorance bliss?!

Hi there!

I have read Alfie Kohn's book a while ago and have always tried to use its principles. I don't smack or use naughty steps or sticker charts and generally have got through bad patches in behaviour with explanation and example

However recently I have got stuck in a rut again. I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old. I have been resorting to taking away my 5 year old's toys when he is playing up which is really a conditional punishment. It works in the short term but he has begun to make reference to 'being good' and being rewarded or loved for that

My 2 year old is very impulsive and irrational at the moment. Very clingy and lots of whining. I have started raising my voice more than I should at her.

Help! I need to get back on track. They are great kids and I adore them because they are the only them in the world and they are mine not for being 'good'

But how to convey that and still have discipline when needed?

Also does this method of parenting include apologising and admitting you have been wrong? I am a big believer in this even for young children

I swore in front of my ds once. Something I rarely do but it was one of those weak moments and it just came out. He then started repeating it, so I had to explain that I was wrong to say it. That if he said it in front of others they may be offended. I admitted my mistake and suggested we both agreed not to say it again.

If I had done that as a kid I would have been clipped around the ear without an explanation - even if I had heard it from my parents in the first place!

Hi triton
What kind of things does your DC which lead to you confiscating toys?

Hi Otherside

Things like getting a bit rough with his little sister (not hitting out as such more just rough and tumble), being cheeky that kind of thing

It is the sillyness which gets out of hand. So I don't mind kids being silly and know this is normal and fun but when they start getting so silly and won't do as asked that I end up loosing my patience.

Sometimes if I ask him not to do something and explain why and calmly he will get really angry and shout or be rude.

Hello all, have just ordered the book from Amazon following a discussion on AIBU. (It's 500+ messages long; I'll save you the bother: yes, the OP was BVU). My DS is only 4.5 months but I am a v keen to think about being a good parent to him and UP sounds like the least violent kind of parenting. Plus, we definately want more (we only decided when DS arrived - we'd had no idea it would be so unspeakably wonderful) so I want to get prepped for the next few...

I have already noticed myself doing things I'd problematised. I gender him LOADS - not just calling him a boy all day, but saying he is strong, big, tall, handsome, etc. Also call myself Mummy, when I actually want him to call me my given name, and talk loudly in the third person about myself when doing stuff with him. I expect therefore that the self-reflection aspect of UP will be the hardest to practice (in the moment of parenting that is, rather than afterwards) because I loose consciousness of myself when I am doing those things and go into auto-parent mode. Does staying reflective in the moment come with practice?

Triton, when DS was 5, DD was 3. I know what you mean. It is so irritating when the silliness drags on and there is stuff that needs to be done. If it's any help, it is probably a phase. DCs are 8 and 6 now and DS sometimes gets annoyed with DD for being silly when he isn't in the mood and wants to get on with stuff. He'll be laughing despite himself and then getting frustrated that she made him laugh. It's really interesting to see how his little boy and big boy sides are in conflict IYSWIM.
I can't remember much of what I did but I remember considering buying a whistle so I could grab their attention when they were being silly when I needed their attention! Sometimes you can grab their attention by joining in, in an even sillier way and then you can direct the silliness so whatever needs to be done gets done. A couple of times they experienced the consequences of their own silliness as in we didn't have time to do whatever activity it was they were looking forward to because they were too busy being silly and not getting ready.

I think with the anger over not being allowed to do something it's just something you have to accept. 5 yr olds get angry and don't necessarily know how to express it in a socially acceptable way. You can make suggestions like rather than shout he draws a picture of how angry he is and you can model the ways you'd like him to express his anger eg rather than rude words use really silly words when you get angry. I think you have to be accepting of any expressions of anger providing they don't hurt anyone or anyone's feelings or harm anything. So if he wants to roar like a lion, why not!

Wildhood, I'd also read that around 2 is a prime time for food refusal - I think it's to do with neophobia (fear of new things).

I found a book in the Teach Yourself range on Toddler Development good - it was by Caroline Deacon who IIRC does stuff for the NCT and is roughly at the attachment parenting end of the spectrum.

Thanks Otherside, really helpful tips. I know they are great kids really and this is all normal developmental stuff but I have been finding it hard going a the moment. I think because my dd has moved from the just sitting on a mat watching ds play stage and now has a personality and will of her own, things seem louder and more chaotic!

Hello all, got the book yesterday, what an eye opener. I was definately on course to be controlling, for a start, and what a way to contextualise some of my adult attitudes in light of the use of punishments and praise that is common in our family! I totally had accepted all that stufff as 'for my own good' and had planned to be 'firm but fair' with my own DS. I thought the naughty step was a good idea, because I'd seen it work on 'Supernanny'... Thank goodness DS is only four months old, and I haven't had an opportunity to try it for myself! I just hadn't thought about it properly at all, except in vague terms, and with a sense that I didn't want my children to be actively frightened of me, as I was of my parents - not that they ever hit me or anything! I just knew how angry they'd get if I broke rules....

What I'm really struggling with, though, is re-seeing all the examples of parenting around me - children being bullied in public so they don't embarrass their parents and descriptions of sobbing children on MN after they've been sent to their room, or whatever. It's really, really, painful to hear and see these things, how do you cope with it on a day to day basis? I was just reading a thread about a boy bullying his younger brother, and no-one asked or showed sympathy for that boy - they just lined up with ways to stop the behaviour (through punishment). I didn't know what to say, to help the situation, and it is heartbreaking to stand aside. Do you have similar experiences? How do you manage?

Just wanted to say that I find the UP philosophy of parenting fascinating and seems to resonate with the style of parenting I have been trying to develop in my household. I only came across the term 'UP' in the thread on AIBU last night so please pardon my ignorance but I am very interested in learning more!
I haven't read any of the books suggested yet but am currently looking them all up on Amazon!
However at this stage I did have a query which some of you more experienced in this might be able to help with.

I have a 2 year old DS who has just hit that stage of seeming to deliberately do what he is not supposed/allowed to. I tell him "No, don't do that as this is the consequence", he listens and then smiles and looks at me defiantly [well it seems defiant] and then does exactly the same thing, all the time watching me for my reaction.
An example of this is throwing his metal toy cars in the vicinity of his 2 month old brother. I very calmly but firmly say "DS, NO don't throw your cars as you might hit DS2 and that would hurt him". DS will then watch me very closely and do it again. I again say "No..."etc and then try to distract him with another activity, if not successful I then finally remove cars or DS from the situation and attempt to explain why I am doing so.
Was just wondering if there were any other ways of dealing with this or of understanding why DS is exhibiting this sort of behaviour? Is the way I am parenting in the UP style?

Also Sparklyboots I completely get what you are saying.

My parents were rather authoritarian and controlling in their parenting style, were terribly afraid of losing control themselves and having the child "get their own way" or get one over them. I remember feeling very resentful and angry as a child. I felt very disrespected and constrained, always told I was wrong or stupid for feeling the way I did and just felt furious a lot of the time. There was no-one who stood up for me or who tried to understand how I felt or why I did what I did

Now I see this same parenting style replicated by my brother. He truly loves his nearly 4 year old daughter but he is so controlling, bullying and humiliating towards her, all in the name of "discipline". It seems to me that too much of their interaction deteriorates into a battle of wills with my brother desperate not to lose face and so he cannot compromise at all.
It makes me angry on my niece's behalf [obviously presses all my emotional baggage buttons] but I wonder how I could speak to my brother about this and stand up for my niece in a way which he could hear and understand without feeling too criticised?

Has anyone else any experience of dealing with this sort of situation?

Hello Sparklyboots and Bootymum

However someone is bringing up their children, I'd be wary of intervening or offering advice if it isn't asked for. Some people really take offence, you've only got to read some of the threads on here.

I sometimes start general discussions along the lines of 'I read xxxx on mumsnet. What do you think of that?' without particularly referring to them or their children, only if I think they might not have thought that there are other ways of doing things.

I agree that it's best just to stay out of discussions if you can. The best advice I've been given is to discuss parenting things with people who think similarly to you and avoid it with people who think differently...
Booty Mum, regarding your 2 year old doing something you have told him not to do and watching for your reaction. I think what you describe sounds sensible to me ... explain very simply why the action is not ok - with my 2 year old that does often have a big impact - and distract. I think at this age distraction is the most useful.
I had one recently of 2 year old keeping opening the cupboard with all the rice and stuff. Our cupboard catches from IKEA don't seem to work and whilst I often then say: "oh you'd like to play with rice" and get out some bowls, spoons, funnels etc. and set up a rice play session, sometimes it's just not the right moment. So recently I picked him up and started dancing round the kitchen singing a "no opening the cupboard" song bouncing him up and down. My five year old immediately starting opening the cupboards so I put down the 2 year old and did the dance with her. Cue, 2 year old looking at me playfully and opening the cupboards! I'm still trying to decide if it was a good thing to do or not - I'd be grateful for opinions!
On the one hand, I had some of the closest and most affectionate play with my five year old that I've had in a long time - she has reached a weight where I don't often pick her up and dance round the kitchen carrying her! The dance involved lots of eye contact and laughing together! It was also a lovely game with my 2 year old. The aim of opening cupboards is now no longer getting out loads of stuff, but is now initiating the dance - which both kids absolutely love! The down side is that they now open the cupboards REALLY A LOT in order to get my attention to start the dance! Aaaarrrgghhh! :o)

I think on balance though, we all benefitted a lot from it. Somehow it really hit the spot with a funny game which we all enjoy! The suggestion in Playful Parenting (by Lawrence Cohen), which I'm reading at present, is that children need to play with rules and breaking rules to be able to understand them and so you could make up silly rules (When ds is throwing cars say something like "No bopping me on the knee with that balloon!" with a look on your face which shows them that this is a game) and then let them break them and then you chase them (or something humorous) in your mock horror at them having broken the rule. It is definitely true that 2 year olds need help "processing" the concept of doing and not doing what your parents say! I don't know if this is a good way of helping them with it???

I guess the best solution for us is new cupboard catches :)