Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Bertie would it be possible for you to set off in enough time so you can get ds chandged at the CM rather than her having to do it (I'm assming this is why you feel it might be taking the piss?) or would he be too distracted there? I'm sure she would understand if you said he had been unwilling to get ready for a while, so you were trying it this way for a bit in the hope that he'd get over it and go back to getting ready at home...? Could you use a blanket when it's cold and he's in shorts etc?

A seperate UP/gental parenting thread is enough for me...like Bertie I worry it would be offputting...for most people it's a spectrum rather than a divide. I think there are lots of people who don't come from/know about this angle but would appreciate knowing more about it. If the board were seperate I would feel unable to post on threads in t' dark other side if my advice might be percieved as UP

Hi I've found this and although not read it all (far too long) some of the ideas seem to resonate with me. I think I may be an UP, and if not I like what the message is - and would like some advice.

For example if we have a bad day behaviour wise (which now DS is 6yo is less often) I will explain why I don't like the behaviour. I also always tell DS why I want him to stop doing something - for example 'I love you and don't want you hurt so thats why you have to stop '.

When I want to enforce a boundary on DS I know he may not like like I say 'sorry, but this is what I have decided and why'. My Mum is always telling me off for the sorry. She says I shouldn't be sorry for enforcing a rule - I'm not!, and he will do it, but I'm acknowledging the fact I know he won't like it.

I grew up in the 'because I said so' land of parents and was always a well behaved child but think thats because I daren't misbehave but not really understanding why I shouldn't do something. I just knew if I did it my parents would be angry. I do not want this for DS.

I want him to know if he makes mistakes, he can tell me and that I'll be dissapointed in the behaviour, but never in him.

hello ballons - I now I have general UP ideas and muddle through the rest so it sounds like you're doing a good job. I personally only say sorry when I am geniuenly sorry as my DDs know when I'm not being sincere and i don't want to belittle the power of an apology. If I do something I know they are not going to like i usually say something along the lines of 'i understand that this will be fustrating for you but i have decided and why'. For me apologies are for mistakes.

I'm struggling with DD1 at the moment (2 years 8 months). I cannot carry her anymore as she is too heavy for me which I have explained. However, she is not happy not having her turn in the sling and is understably upset that DD2 still rides in the sling and gets carried everywhere. She has regressed in everything - wanting to be spoon fed (which is biazare as she was never spoon fed as a baby), I have to dress her, won't go to bed without me etc etc It is driving me mad as DD2 needs a lot of looking after still and i simply can't do both. Is there anything I can do? I'm giving her lots of attention and extra hugs but its like water off ducks back.

Do you have a pushchair, MonkeyandParrot? Could you use the pushchair for dd2 when she doesn't want to walk?

Also, as she is still under 3yo, I don't think it's unusual to enjoy being spoon-fed, still needing to be helped getting dressed or not wanting to go to bed on your own.
Could she go to sleep downstairs and carry her up later?
Take turns with the feeding. She does a spoonful, you do a spoonful type of thing.
I'm not really sure what your problem is here (not meant in a nasty way).

Is 2 and a half really too heavy for a back carry in an Ergo or mei tei style sling? Maybe you have a bad back, so I don't mean to be aggressive - I still put my 6 yo in the Ergo for very short emergency carries, though! (and yes, it's not comfortable, but sometimes a 2-minute carry saves a 40-minute altercation, yk?)

Heliumballoons - I think that sounds fine but without so many words. Someone once said to me "for the paragraph in your mind, say a sentence. For the sentence in your mind, say one word. for the word in your mind, use a gesture". So not a great long diatribe, but "squeezing hurts the rabbit. Stroke gently", while extricating half-strangled bunny from death grip and demonstrating gentle stroking with child's hand.

And for me, it's not really about anyone's feelings, it's more practical than that. Having said this, there are times when I have to simply walk away out of sight and leave a child 30 feet up a tree in the charge of their other parent because I cannot bear to watch. They never do fall down, but I still have conniptions, which doesn't help anyone, and a tree climber is a tree climber [I spent most of my childhood 30 feet up in trees, and think it is truly valuable for them as likes it; it's just hard for me to watch my genetic investment that high off the ground without safety nettage] But I think it more important for my children to learn to climb safely and extricate themselves from tall trees rather than for me to try to micromanage them to my own comfort levels of risk - to my mind, there's nothing worse than a teenager whose parents managed risk for them until they went to university

I have a pushchair but DD1 understably prefers to be carried - yes a 2.5 year old doesn't weigh too much but the combined weight of 14 month old and a 2.5 year old does :-) And I have a recurring back problem as well so I'm quite careful. DD2 isn't yet walking.
Its unusal for DD1 as she is usually very independent and does everything herself - what i more meant is she doesn't co-operate with anything. So wheras before she would put on her clothes then i would fasten them, now she won't even put her arms in the sleeves she just goes floppy. And bedtime has always been a nightmare. DD2 cluster feeds in the evenings but when DD1 is tired she won't share mummy. So we had routine where DD2 would play with her toys while DD1 would curl up with me for stories, prayers and songs then i would switch off the light and DD1 would self settle while i fed DD2 in the lounge. Now DD1 just cries unless i lie with her but she takes ages to get to sleep and DD2 won't wait. Feeding lieing down or sitting on the bed or in the bedroom just induces a tantrum to 'put that baby down now'. I guess DD1 is still just a baby and i had a brief window of independence. I forget sometimes how young she actually is as she seems so grown up next to DD2.

exhaust her
lots of star jumps
seriously - if she's physically tired, she'll go to sleep easier.
could you give her a choice? ie we can all lie down together now, or you can play until the baby has gone to sleep, and then i can lie down with just you.

i do spend a lot of time saying 'that's just the way it is'

I've lost the thread already

I had some success with DH. DD is finally tall enough to climb our sofa and I knew that she could get down as I've seen her a few times. Told DH just to let her fall (as he was worried about leaving her on her own in the living room now) with him being there if she looked she would hit her head. Two days later she's a pro at getting down from the sofa :)

OK have read,

Don't really have much to contribute as DD is quite young and I still haven't read as much about UP as I would like. Don't want you thinking I'm rude just not in a position to help.

Just a side question for Monkey Sounds like you have a similar gap to what I'm expecting and I read right you tandem feed? Any tips greatly appreciated DD will be 19 months when 'Nigel' comes along (DH's name for bump). Mind you my supply is so reduced I think she might wean before this pg is up.

PA I sort of tandem fed (first tandem feed was in the delivery room - a first for the hospital :-) ) I only have a reliable source of milk in one breast so i knew tandem feeding was going to be difficult but DD1 was only 17 months and i felt she was too young to wean. Sadly DD2 was tounge tied and that meant she fed constantly which meant DD1 rarely got a chance at the breast only feeding the odd time I had milk on both sides. DD1 night weaned at 18 months when dd2 was 4 weeks simply because she would fall asleep waiting for me to finish feeding dd2! I had to express to maintain supply so dd1 had expressed milk until 24 months but she stopped breastfeeding at 19 months. I was exaggerating before - trust me 4 weeks of night feeding a tounge tied infant and a toddler feels like months :-) DD2 had her tounge snipped at 6 weeks but DD1 only really fed by that point if she was feeling unwell.

I actually did quite a bit of research into tandem feeding as i only have milk in one breast so i knew it wasn't going to be easy. Have you found the Green Parent forum? A lot of mammas on there tandem fed/feed and have great advice. The LL produce a great booklet on tandem feeding (you can get it off their website) which is really helpful.

I found that DD1 was actually quite happy to share - i talked a lot about the new baby only having milk and that she would need to feed more. One thing to be aware of is that the toddler will get the cloestrum (apologies for spelling) and the ensuing sticky poo

Apologies for hijacking. DD1 has solved my problem herself - we had a couch meeting (as much as you can with a 2 year old) and have reached a compromise. DD1 gets the sling on Sundays and when DD2 is asleep. She has also negotiated bedtime - my bfs family own a caravan and DD1 has been desperate to stay overnight. The deal is if she goes to bed by herself for a week we will stay in the caravan as i will know she is responsible enough. Think that is probably bribery but it was her suggestion and she went to bed with no fuss tonight. DD2 isn't yet on solids and often feeds from 8 pm till 11 pm so i prefer dd1 to be asleep by 8. DD1 has just grasped the art of negotiation and its so much fun.

I have a food problem with DD, any advice much appreciated. Sorry in advance for length, I can't do short posts. We did BLW and she's always been great at trying stuff, if she doesn't like it we don't make her eat it - we don't make her try it either as up until now she always has of her own accord.

However recently she has been refusing food and holding out for pudding - her brother is being weaned at the moment so he has main plus pudding, and while she's happy to just sit there and wait for us all to finish main course, I don't feel comfortable denying her pudding when her brother is happily guzzling his down, that feels like a punishment and I don't really want to punish her for not eating her main as that creates food issues, imo. However I don't want her to exist solely on fruit and custard (which is what puddings are in the main, or yoghurt, or whatever - despite being BLW she is mad for chocolate/cake/anything sweet but if she's not eaten much/any main I tend to try and offer a healthier pudding to offer a better balance of vitamins etc.)

Today we went to the shop and bought sausages, among other things. She loves sausages, fair enough. However they're for a barbecue this afternoon. I explained this at the time we bought them, we had a barbecue last week so she knows what that means. I made a risotto for lunch and she refused to try it - we didn't make a fuss, encouraged her to try it, she wouldn't, we sort of shrugged and said okay then, and left it on the table. She then said she wanted sausages, I explained that she couldn't have the sausages because they're not cooked, and I'd cooked a risotto, but we could have sausages later. We then had a screaming, crying, tantrum that it wasn't sausages (she was also saying she wanted to "hold the sausages" but I explained again that they weren't cooked and she can't hold them when they're not cooked as they've got germs.) I almost got her out of the tantrum by saying I was sorry she wanted sausages but I couldn't cook everything everybody wanted or I would be cooking and cooking and cooking and cooking and can you imagine if I had to live in the kitchen all the time, there'd be no time for tickling etc... but after a half-smile she went back to wailing and wouldn't be jollied out of it.

Eventually she stopped crying and said she wanted to get down from the table, we let her, she went to play, her brother finished his main and I brought out the fruit and custard, DD comes running back saying she wants custard too. So I let her get back up, bib on and she has a pot of custard. And it feels like she's getting her own way, when her own way isn't in her best interests, and I can't find a UP way to resolve this - I'm loathe to do the "you'll eat what you're given or get nothing" routine, but that's the next step unless I can think of a better way.

She refused to try the tomato soup I made last night too, although she ate the cheesy croutons before moving on to the fruit, so it's not like this is a one-off. I fully expect the same again at dinnertime tonight. Breakfast is much more routine in terms of her food choice so we don't have issues there, plus she chooses her cereal/toast or whatever which probably helps. But it's not practical for the other meals for her to do that.

Previously the trend has been that she's got her main, tried it, says she doesn't like it, had her pudding and then gone back to the main to finish that up, which I was fine with (doesn't matter what order she eats it in as long as she is eating a balance, and the main stays on the table throughout), but now it's become very much more pudding-or-nothing. I don't know how to resolve it, it's not healthy in the long term for her to be eating sweet stuff all the time, even if it is mostly fruit. If she tried the food and then said she didn't like it I would be more amenable to offering an alternative (of the quick and boring toast variety) but even then I don't think that's a great precedent to set. I'm just completely out of ideas. Any suggestions very much welcomed...

Some ideas here:

old blog post

Personally, I tend to eat in blocks. So for months and months, I'll have exactly the same breakfast every day and then, suddenly, I shift to something else. Or I'll eat exactly the same lunch every day for a week, and then shift.

There's a lot to be said for eating what we feel like eating (isn't that what you do? It's what I do) and learning to listen to what our bodies are suggesting we eat. A child keen to eat sausages may be in need of a protein fix.

Also - we have completely de-coupled puddings from mealtimes in my house. there is no expectation that a "main" will be followed by a "pudding". At some times of day, everyone is tucking into bananas or apples; at other times of day we are mainlining sausages or beefburgers or roast chicken. Sometimes it's a vegetable meal, with a plate of peas or sweetcorn or lots of carrots or whatever. OR sometimes it is a whole bowl of pasta or rice or oven chips, or a mound of bread and butter. No, the food options are not unlimited. I tend not to keep biscuits or icecream or chocolate in the house - if we want those, we go out and buy just one helping of them. We eat very simply - a roast chicken, with optional gravy for anyone who wants it and a veg on the side might well translate either into just chicken or just veg for somebody. We eat a lot of eggs (takes only moments to fry one up), smoked salmon (even if it's in the freezer it takes no time to defrost enough to eat), cheese...

I am a big fan of having lots of food types available that will be attractive to the intended clientele, and am also NOT a fan of big set piece cookery when noone but me actually wants to eat the results. (My mother tends to do the set piece cookery and fill my freezer with individual portions for me when she visits, which is glorious - it means I get whatever sophisticated stews she's been making, without anyone else having it imposed on them, and with almost no effort on my part)

Worth thinking in terms of your children having a balanced diet over a week or a month, but certainly not within every single day.

Oh, and...

the result of this sort of free-for-all fooding is NOT that I am cooking multiple different meals all the time. I cook what I want to eat, and other people are very welcome to join in. If they don't want to join in, I have lots of good and nutritious food that takes little or no preparation. (anyone can have a carrot at any point, or a bowl of grated cheese, yk?)

the result of this sort of lifestyle is NOT that no-one eats meals, or is capable of sitting down for a meal. Those who are capable of social meal times tend to join in with social mealtimes. Those who are not at this point in their life, for whatever reasons, would just be suffering hellishly if mealtimes were imposed on them every day. Time enough to learn about the value of a fixed social mealtime when that becomes a necessary part of their social repertoire.

the result of this sort of free-for-all is NOT that my children eat nothing but chips and icecream. They are perfectly capable of looking at the chocolate we just bought, and tucking into a satsuma instead (that happened just earlier today). They get really good at listening to their bodies and following their nutritional needs which, after all, is what we are hoping our offspring will get good at by the time they are leaving home. Mine are just doing it really early. If you are a talky talky sort of house you can talk about how eating too much chocolate makes you feel sick. If not, then it only takes a day or two of eating nothing but chocolate buttons for a child to work out what's happening. Blech. (btdt)

I will confess from the start that I haven't read this thread in its entirety, or read the book, I will be however, as I think this is largely the kind of parenting we do.
Can I ask how many of you have older kids? My dc is 9, so I'm interested in how Up translates to the older child when certain rules have to be followed outside the home as well as inside?

Thanks Ommward... I do try and think of the overall 'pattern' of the week/month, it's just that the overall pattern is meat and puddings! Possibly there are enough nutrients in there to keep her healthy, and it is a "block eating" thing (will look up more info on that, thanks) but that's only half the issue. I'm not bothered about her not finishing her food, I'd never 'make' her clear her plate as I agree it's just not helpful for future food habits, it is more why, when she has previously been fairly adventurous, is she suddenly refusing to try new foods? And how can I encourage her to do this without it becoming confrontational? Or is it just 'a phase'?

She gets choice over her breakfasts, and over her snacks. If she does ask for something, like sausages today, we'll try and accommodate it, e.g. having them for her tea today. (But then she ate the sausages and left the veg and carbs - although the carbs were covered off in rice pudding which she ate.) The sugar content of her diet worries me as my teeth are pretty rubbish so I don't want hers going the same way. Fwiw, DD can cope with 'social' meals, she eats better (greater quantity and more focused attention) when we all sit down together.

We don't generally have chocolate and biscuits in the house so she has things like cheese, fruit, breadsticks, crackers, whatever. We were advised to introduce puddings by the HV (to up calorific and dairy intake) so that's a fixture. We usually let DD eat whatever quantity of stuff she wants, however we have had to restrict fruit a bit as she will repeatedly eat it until she has diarrhoea (sp?) and I don't think she's old enough to connect the one with the other yet. (Case in point - she gets terrible nappy rash from the diarrhoea unless she's changed immediately, and we tell her she needs to tell us when she's pooed as she gets sore from the poo, but she doesn't.)

I just don't know why she's stopped trying new stuff and got fixated on puddings (if it was a new pudding I bet she'd try it!!).

(Oh and Isla, mine are 2.3 and 0.6 so no help for you I'm afraid!)

mummyosaurus Would you ask them to say sorry before 5 or 6 and then just leave it if they said no or did you not ask them to say it and just wait til they did it spontaneously without being prompted?

Oh and back to the stones in the letterbox issue, the stones aren't very big but we have a hard wood floor in our hall and the stones are scratching it. If we had tiles or carpet I don't suppose it would be a problem.

He's not bothered about keeping the stones afterwards, he just likes posting them.

Bertie How old was your DS when you started letting him walk by medium to busy roads?

I would like some opinions on this as well please - If you know saying no to something even with an explanation of why the answer is no is going to cause a tantrum, would you try to get around it by saying maybe, we'll see, if there's time later etc even if you know it's a definite no? Or should you just be honest, say no, explain why, then deal with the imminent tantrum?

DD walks on medium to busy roads already but if she gets too distracted or we're in a hurry we put her in the buggy and she's not yet of a age to get stroppy about it.

Ommmward You mentioned a typical meal of roast chicken, with optional gravy and veg on the side. Do you plate everyone's meal up and then they can eat what they want and leave what they don't on the plate, or do you do a plate of chicken, bowls of veg (seperate veg in each bowl or a big bowl of mixed veg?), a bowl of potatoes and a jug of gravy in the middle of the table so everyone can help themselves just to what they want?

PenguinArmy How old is she? And does she hold hands?

she's 14 months and doesn't normally hold hands. There are sometimes a lot of guiding and it is very slow but there are lot of places just short walks away. She will hold hands if the terrain is slightly tricky. We've had her walking out when she could since she was 10 months.

Have you always let her walk on medium to busy roads without holding hands or is it a more recent development?

I've always tried to let DS walk and allow time for it, then just let him get in the buggy when he asked to. Whether that was what led to the later tantrums when being told he needed to get in the buggy because we didn't have time for him to walk, I don't know.

Those that use mei-tais what age/weight did you comfortably use them up to?