Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

Bootymum, i find it helps to suggest what my son can do, rather than use words like no/don't - eg Oh, you want to throw things? Cool, you can throw these that way, away from Baby so he doesn't accidentally get hit as that would hurt - how far can you throw this one?
Or (my current one) Yes, football's great fun, you like kicking the ball. But as we're still on the way to the park, the ball needs to stay in your bag so that we can all stay on the pavement, including the ball, you remember how sometimes it accidentally goes in the road otherwise. You can kick the bag while holding the handles. (prompting human-swingball-type game). I use 'accidentally' to make it clear (and to remind myself) that he is doing his best, even when I feel like all my buttons are getting pushed.

Arse. Meant to use paras. On phone.

I got myself distracted there. More in answer to your questions BootyMum, as I see it, he is experimenting, he wants to find out atleast: do you always react in the same way, how much power does he have (can he get his way, what happens when he doesn't do what you say) etc..
For me, it is important that you use the look on your face, tone of voice, to convey to him "I'm on your side" and "I'm teaching you something now". What is being taught is "No throwing cars. Throwing cars at your brother can hurt him". I make eye contact (and can even gently hold his shoulders so that we are looking at each other square on so I can make good eye contact - but always in a tender way) explain that in a kind, patient, I'm on your side voice. Then I gradually distract him.
Unfortunately for me, when the bigger one is really hurting the littler one, I don't always find it easy to stay as calm as I want to! But that isn't the case with these 2 year old "testing my reaction" kind of situations. Usually it is then very deliberate, slow and often playful. I find that the explanation is very helpful. We have a cleaning lady who he worships. One day he was throwing food on the floor after I had asked him to stop. I explained to him that X had spent a long time yesterday mopping the floor making it so lovely and clean and so it was a shame to make it messy again. She has done all that work and now we have to help her by keeping it as tidy and clean as we can. I could see him really thinking hard about that and he did not throw more food (that day!).

Thank-you so much for these helpful suggestions!

I think I can put all these in practice with DS - Simic's playfulness, concentrating on what son can do rather than what he cannot [MavisG], and conveying I'm on his side and trying to teach him something rather than chastising and nagging [Simic].

Just wanted to check something else out with you all. I try and use positive reinforcement with son rather than concentrate on what he doesn't do - for example this morning he was sitting in his highchair and finishing his breakfast. He was being quiet and eating all his food, I'd almost forgotten he was there [he was right next to me but I was on ebay and MN ]. Then I turned around and noticed he was trying to climb out of his highchair by himself [which he is told not to do as he could hurt himself]. But I recognised he had probably been very patient waiting for me to notice that he was finished and thus was now taking matters into his own hands [and I want to encourage him to experiment and become gradually more independent...] So I reinforced the "positive" behaviour [patience] and said "Thank-you for being so patient. Would you like to get out now? Shall Mummy help you so you don't hurt yourself?"

I guess I am just wondering if this is anti UP as it seems I am praising a behaviour [which is manipulative?] If so, how could I do this differently?

By the way, I am going to order the books today as I realise I have some reading to do around this parenting philosophy!

I find the "not praising" really hard. Firstly, my mum praises constantly so for me it is a sort of reaction. I find it hard to stop myself but am trying really hard to cut down! But also there's the question as to what is and what isn't praise. I also use "thank you" as a way of side-stepping praise - with the idea that it isn't me judging the child but rather me saying that him doing x helped me. After all, this is how I communicate with adults. I don't say "well done for picking up dd from nursery for me", I say "thanks for picking up dd from nursery for me". However, I know that I infuriate most adults for thanking them for things. They say that they have done it and they would expect me to do the same for them and they get annoyed with being thanked for it (I think this has something to do with not living in the UK - seems to be a cultural thing). So, I guess I'm just teaching my kids my own ticks...

I say 'thank you' a lot too. Or describe the thing I like rather than "Good boy" - so "That's really kind, to share" or "That's really helpful, DS, thank you" or for the generic well done/clever boy I say things like "You did it all by yourself" or "We did it together!" or "You built a tower Oh wow, it's very tall."

I don't think anyone I know would be offended by a thank you - so probably cultural. could you say something else like "I really appreciate you helping me tidy" or something.

Some points a bit further back - it seems there have been lots of newcomers so it's moved fast. Sorry if anyone feels missed out - feel free to just ask again if your question has been lost in all the new responses :)

Nappyaddict, DS still isn't allowed to walk by busy roads unless the pavement is very wide, and he's 2.7. I can't remember when he started walking by medium roads - possibly around 2ish. He didn't walk unaided until sixteen months so it was a while before he could walk that far anyway. But he's never liked holding hands either. He's got better at it recently.

With saying no even if you know it will upset them, I find a delayed no can help. So not no you can't have ice cream, but yes, you can have ice cream tomorrow. Or offer an alternative. Would you like a yoghurt? And try to keep the actual nos to a minimum. I find actually that DS is usually distraught for a minute or two but then he's absolutely fine, so now I know he's just expressing his initial frustration and upset it's easier for me to cope with. If you imagine the feeling when you go to a shop to get a specific thing and they are sold out, then you can imagine how they are feeling, and then just multiply that by you've just had a bad day, you're tired and you have PMT. It helps me sympathise with toddlers anyway.

Booty - him climbing down might not have to be unsafe, perhaps? could you for example remove the tray and then stand there holding the highchair in case it tips, so that he's allowed to climb out himself but only in specific circumstances. I'm not sure patience would be a concept he could understand really if he's still young enough for a highchair. But yes I think reinforcing what you want him to do is a good thing. What about trying to think of a word you might use - I wouldn't say to DS "be patient" but I might say "You need to wait" - so how about "Thanks for waiting, shall I help you down now?"

Thanks Bertie, that's a good point. Maybe simplifying my language would be helpful!

Just marking my place. :)

Simic - could you move the rice etc to a different cupboard. Perhaps swap with a cupboard containing plastic bowls or similar?

Actually I'm having an issue at the moment. DS seems to be going through a phase where he will get into this "manic" mindset and just tunes out of everything you say, just wanting to be silly, which is fine most of the time (I'm sure all two year olds do this, don't they?) But recently during his "manic" spells he seems to want to take everything out of something (box or whatever) and spread it around the room. Now the best way to deal with this seems to be to just take the box away or put my hands over the things he's trying to take out (in the case of clean washing etc), but sometimes I can't get to him in time or something. Two examples were the other day when my mum and sister were here, he took a small plastic bag out of the little bin, which had some small bits of rubbish in, some wrappers/paper/apple cores, and then he swung the bag all around while running around shouting. Me, my mum and sister all cried "No, DS!" and tried to grab it off him but he just thought that was hilarious and ran away. By then the bag was empty so I just left him to it but I felt a bit like I should have tried harder to make him see that wasn't an acceptable thing to do. I tried to get him to pick the things up a few minutes later but he was still too hyped up.

Then this morning I was still half asleep and he found a suitcase which I have been putting clothes I no longer want into (it's a slow process!) and managed to open it and throw all the clothes at me. I was too half asleep to do anything much more than say "Stop it, put them back..." (although putting them back would be pointless since he wouldn't fold them) and so by the time I did get up all the clothes were everywhere and I was a bit annoyed. But again too late to do anything.

I think he tends to do his "manic" periods when he's hungry so I can try to avoid that as well. But other than that what do you think? Should I try to tell him this kind of thing isn't acceptable or what?

Interested to hear responses to Bertie's dilemma so marking my place.

But I know what you are talking about Bertie, my 2 year old also gets into hyped manic stage at times. Any attempt to stop him he treats as absolutely hilarious. I'm not sure if it is he is hungry or tired... I think he just gets overexcited at times and cannot manage his feelings without a lot of running around, throwing things. Sometimes I try to channel it by saying "You've got a lot of energy at the moment. Let's throw all the toys into the toy box, quick, quick, let's go!" but tbh sometimes that's not convenient or possible. But with my DS I recognise that he has gone a bit beyond reason at this point and I sometimes then just try to stay very calm and wind him down, perhaps distract him with a book [he loves being read to] and get him to sit on the floor with me and I start reading in a very low slow voice... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Not easy to manage and I'm interested in what others do and say.

Bertie,

my thoughts on what you wrote:
I think you're right that 2 year olds do this. I am sure that whatever you do, he will grow out of it. Putting your hands over the clean washing or getting the basket out of the way fast saves your washing and your floor so seems to be a good way of dealing with it while you're waiting for him to come out of the phase.
I think BootyMum's idea of suggesting something else with a lot of energy sounds good. I sometimes launch myself at ds pretending to be a hungry crocodile with my arms being a snapping mouth, catch him and swing him around - or start jumping up and down on the spot and grab him and throw him up in the air and catch him (this sounds more dangerous than it is - I wouldn't be able to throw him more than half a centimetre if I tried! - but he thinks it's funny). Or pretend to be a big dustbin van coming and emptying him as the dustbin into the van before carrying him on on the dustbin van's journey away from the scene of the washing or whatever. I think when they're in this silly kind of mood, the madder the better. Just an idea.
I think if he's spread all the rubbish over the floor, maybe getting him away from the spot, playing madly and then when he's calmed down saying "let's go back and tidy up all that rubbish - it has to go in the bin" and getting him to help would work with my two year old ds.
It could be that he won't accept any input from you: he wants to put on the show and doesn't want you coming with your own madness.
In that case, to be honest, I might just wait and let it take its course (not saying anything). Then when he has clearly completely finished say "oh my goodness. This floor is messy. Let's put all the rubbish in the bin, then I'll give you a mop for you to wash the floor" (cleaning with mops is always a great incentive in our house - as is unrestricted use of the vacuum cleaner!).

Thanks all, these last few posts have been helpful for me. DD is 21mo and we've had some of these manic episodes. She's also getting really into rough play with DH before bed, like she needs to get some pent up energy out before she goes to sleep.

It's nice to hear other LO's get into these manic phases for whatever reason. I generally do encourage her to tidy/clean up afterwards, but I think I'm doing it too soon afterwards and not giving her enough time to calm down.

I know I need to do some more crazy play with her, so thank you Simic for your suggestions

Does anyone have any bright ideas with what to do with a 16 m.o. while you're cooking (or doing other household jobs)? I try to prepare meals while he naps, but it's not always possible. He's happy to play on his own for short periods but around teatime he wants attention/picking up much more often than at other times of the day.

He has a set of steps so he can stand at the worksurface and get in the way help but that's no good if I've got the hobs on (he'd be too close for safety) or if I'm trying to wash up (he takes the clean dishes off the draining board and chucks them back into the washing up water).

He likes standing on the steps and building towers with bricks but again, not for very long at once. He has a treasure basket which occupies him for about 3 minutes and enjoys playing with duplo / magnets on the fridge / books, all of which occupy him for only a short time. Everything goes in his mouth so things like crayons / playdough aren't any good when I'm only loosely supervising.

I think it's to do with the time of day - in the mornings, he'll play on his own with those sort of things for ages.

The sling is hurting my back at bit at the moment (I need to get a better one) so that's no good either (plus he can get a bit grumpy).

My solution was to cook the food at a different time and reheat.
Last minute things like pasta and a bit of steamed veg only require short bursts of attention.
Oh and learn to make cheese sauce in the microwave. Wish I'd known that trick when mine were little.

Bookmarking for the most part... I'm intrigued and happy that I employ a lot of the principles on my own accord, although it came through self examination, which is always hard.

Dealing with my 2 year old and her 'moments' began at 1.6 year old when I implemented the naughty spot. Now I say one of two things, depending on the level of infraction; either I start counting to three, but by the count of two, she does what it is that I am asking of her or I say 'naughty spot in the count of three'. The latter being for extreme behaviour. She rarely gets sent to the naughty spot. After 2 minutes there, I come down to her level, explain to her simply why she must listen and ask her to say sorry and then I tell her I love her and give her a hug. It works very well.

AngelDog Sounds like you are doing everything... sometimes I would put the tv on too while cooking dinner, but make the stool available for getting up and down.

cooking - have the child doing some 'cooking' at the same time but not next to the hobs? Or teach your child about the hobs? All it takes is to put them on and put hand near saying "hot" (I mean, hold child's hand and put both near) and they quickly get the point. By age 2 I don't worry about mine by the cooker.

And I will often give my children a sink bath with bubbles and pouring pots to keep them occupied while I cook. If it's very splashy, then the floor gets a mop afterwards - what's not to like?

GotArt, I think the one-two-three-naughty spot wouldn't usually be described as compatible with a UP approach, just FYI.

Thanks for the suggestions on cooking etc. It hadn't occurred to me to teach DS about the hobs by means that ommmward suggested so that was useful. (He already stays away from the slow cooker after having accidentally touched it when hot.) He had fun today putting asparagus spears in and out of a box while I prepared dinner a few hours early.

ommmward That's what I thought but it works like a charm. I rarely use it now at all TBH.

"works like a charm"

It's certainly teaching your child something, and having the desired short term effect. Whether the long term effect on your child and on your relationship is desired is quite another question (Alfie Kohn would say no, you really don't want the long term effect of punishments or threats of punishments like that)

Oh i'm glad i found this thread. I have the book and started reading it, but gave up and I want to re-read all the way through. We are experiencing some challenging behaviour from DS1 (4 Yrs). Lots of power struggles, tantrums, aggression. I have to say DH and I and are at a total loss of how to deal with this. Time outs, threats, bribery, taking toys away are all the tactics I seem to use, and all too often the situation ends in both of us shouting. I am so NOT being the parent I want to be. I have a niggling feeling that what we are doing (bribery, threats etc), is not right, that there is something quite wrong about it and what are we teaching DS. But, oh it's so difficult

Hi Joni, do you have any specific issues?

On the counting thing, I did find that counting without the naughty step very helpful with a fiercely independent toddler.
eg toddler messing around climbing into a car seat when you don't have any longer to wait. I used to say, I'll count to 3 and then if you're not in, I'll have to put you in. Counting helps them focus on the approaching deadline.

Hi otherside....

Well what isn't the issue? i would say most of the problems stem for the ways in which DS's father and I handle the situations as they arise. I don't have any idea how to deal with or resolve a situation with a incredibly determined, hot tempered, willful 4 year old. How on earth to get him to do what I need him to do. Of course, he does do as we say sometimes, but other times all too often there are tears and tantrums. I feel so out of control of the situation, and that I can't 'control' DS for want of a better word. I know UP is not about control but I can't think of another way of expressing it. I seem to use terrible ways to try to control like threatening and shouting , taking toys away. The thing is these things don't work and everyone gets frustrated. He doesn't listen anyway. I think I need to read the book again

Otherside The counting is really all I have to do now. I only use it after asking 3 times for her, say, put her shoes on. I leave her to it, she doesn't do it, I repeat, 'DD, please put your shoes on', then the third would be "DD, please put your shoes on, we have to go to the store'. If she is still distracted, I will start counting and by the time I get to two, she focus' and puts her shoes on and I always thank her. I feel this is something that works for us. I know it doesn't with some children, creating more walls, but finding what works with you and your child is key, isn't it? If she puts up a fight about taking a nap, that's not where I use it. I usually pick her up and tell her lovingly that she needs to take a nap and will feel better when she wakes and talk to her. I don't feel like all the UP techniques work all the time. We are really quite lucky as we've not had the tantrums that I hear from most. I'd like to think that was the reflected result of mine and DH's relationship.

My MIL recently told me that the only way to get a child to listen to you was to smack them.

Joni, have you re-examined your requests? You know, thought carefully about each thing you ask him to do (or not do), is it really necessary? Everyone's rules are different. I for one insist on compliance when it comes to brushing teeth. Whereas some people on this thread don't think daily brushing is necessary.

Your DS might have some ideas of his own on how to make it easier for him to do/not do whatever. You could say something like 'tooth brushing is boring but it has to be done because ..... How can we make it more fun?'

Currently in this house DCs are listening to the radio, brushing their teeth for the length of a song. It involves a certain amount of button twiddling for them to find a song they like, so it can sometimes take about 15 minutes, but it gets the job done.

Have you read 'How to talk so kids will listen'? It is about getting kids to comply without shouting and threatening.