Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

MonkeyandParrot - thanks for the suggestions. DS has a trolley walker, although he's never shown any interest in using it - I'll see if he's interested now he's properly walking.

On the Continuum Concept thing, I'd behave / organise myself quite differently if he didn't have that sense of danger / caution. I'm not sufficiently persuaded by Jean Lindoff that I'd go with it if it doesn't work.

For example, when DS started crawling, he did the whole stopping at the top of the stairs thing when he saw there was a drop there, so I didn't bother with gates as he would always stop. But there was a spell where he realised it was possible to get down - and he wanted to - but he couldn't do it safely (he wanted to launch himself off head first). I reinstated gates, and supervised all activity on the top of the stairs. Once he'd learnt (taught himself) how to go safely backwards down them I opened the gates again.

I think you have to be slightly more on your guard with a child who doesn't show that sense of caution.

On the issue of slings, I have an Ergo which I use for a back carry with DS who weighs 13kg. It's fine, except that the shoulder straps can slide outward off the shoulders a bit (not enough to be unsafe, just enough to be annoying). I don't know if it's a design issue or whether it's just because he likes leaning wildly out from side to side.

ommmward How long and how often did you use bicarb for? And how often do you rinse with water? Do you just rinse or do you actually have a bit of a rub/scrub on the scalp?

Is bicarb alone not enough to get rid of the stickiness from the chlorine?

Got a question for you lot as well :) I couldn't join the group cos I can only do the pages that you have to like not groups on my facebook profile.

DS keeps wanting to post stones in our letter box. I have made him a toy letterbox to post things into and he's got the wooden toy one from ELC but that's not good enough. Any other suggestions?

Coming back to this really late, but I just wanted to say thank you to Bertie and Simic for their advice earlier - particularly Simic reminding me that they need to be able to choose a solution that avoids them saving face. You're quite right - we need to come up with a win-win situation, if at all possible, that keeps everybody happy. Out of interest though, what would you have done with your DD on the scooter if there'd been no time to pick the longer, third route home?

Oh PS, Bertie, it's possible to have a closed FB group, which doesn't appear on your profile so noone will bug you about the ins and outs of UP. I'm a member of one already (not specifically UP, sadly, but a general parenting one).

nappyaddict a year maybe? It was a really good half-way house. I never thought of it being sufficient for the chlorine - thank you - will try that!

how about actually making cards and letters for the postman? "dear Mr Postman, here is a picture of a flower for you" and then put it in an envelope and address to the Postman. Then yes, you're putting rubbish in a postbox, but it's kind of cute rubbish that might make the day of someone in the sorting office.

I'm not on fb. Would eat in to my mn time.

Nappyaddict, re stones, i'd be tempted just to let him get on with it and hope he'd get bored. Have you asked him not to? Or to take them away again after? Are they big/heavy enough to cause damage?

Hello,

I haven't read the book but I'm seeing some familiar usernames on this thread and I think I belong here

2.6 yo DD1 has realised that 8 wo DD2 is here to stay and is starting to assert her independence. Has anyone got any UP-type tips on how to cope? Time out, sticker charts etc are not my style at all and I think would be useless on a 2 yo anyway. The toughest times are when she just flat-out refuses to do what I ask and throws herself on the floor. It gets worse when she's hungry and she's so fussy that she doesn't eat much some days. I'm so glad that DD2 is very chilled out and seems happy to be hauled around in the sling as I run around after DD1 averting chaos

hi eaurouge

It sounds to me like you are already heading in a up direction by being aware of her triggers (eg hunger) and avoiding them where possible, and utilising the sling. I would think it worth asking dd1 what is better or worse about having a baby sister and seeing what this throws up as a starting point. Of course you may have had that conversation already.

If the problem is asking her to do things can you ask her less! The burden of sisterhood might be weighing heavy on her

Others will have more practical advice...i'm just starting out. I'd really recommend the book if you can.

Me again. We had a better couple of days excep for a couple of things. One at the park when we needed to leave so I could feed dd and he refused. Didn't know what to do as had the pram and someone else's child with me. Ended up bribing with chocolate egg.

Then yesterday I needed to go out as dh had a dissertation due in. Was getting organised to take ds to the park and he wouldn't let me dress him. Tried making it a game but no joy. Eventually resorted to time out :( it did mean I got him dressed though and we had a great time at the park. I get to a stage where I need something to happen but don't know what else to do and I get very stressed.

Thanks MFM, I'll try and get hold of the book.

'Pick your battles' has been my mantra for the last few weeks and if DD1 refuses to do some things I just leave her to roll around on the floor shouting 'NOOOO!!' but some things I do need her to do like have her nappy changed because she got awful nappy rash (toddler colostrum poo, yuck!) a few weeks back and I don't want it coming back. Are things like nappy changes, teeth brushing etc worth fighting over? She's actually not too bad with her teeth but nappy changing doesn't always go to plan, she's getting to the stage where she hates having a dirty nappy but isn't quite ready for potty training. Gosh, I've rambled, sorry

She loves having a baby sister and is already very protective and they hold hands when I BF them both, it's cute enough to make you melt.

Just been reading penguinarmy's thoughts about sleep- DD1 is not and never has been a sleeper. DD2 is only 8 weeks but is only waking up twice a night now (one night she only woke up once, I was so worried!). DD1 is still waking up at least 4 times a night and the night weaning has gone totally out of the window. I'm hoping DD2 can teach DD1 a few things about sleep!

I know you can have a closed group, but I prefer something open like this thread where people can stumble across it by accident, lurk without feeling too shy to join, etc. Just personal preference :)

Neeps, something I found helpful with things like slamming doors, throwing things, is trying to turn the sentence around. So instead of don't slam the door, or stop throwing, I try to remember to say "Close the door gently/quietly/slowly/carefully" or "Kick the ball" (when his kick was quite feeble and not dangerous - more often I say "Roll the ball" now)

On getting dressed there was a bit of a discussion up thread about that - upshot is, I try to leave as long as possible to get DS dressed. If I rush him, he fights against it. If we have loads of time he doesn't seem to as much. This morning I ended up really screaming because we were 40 minutes late for the childminder after he decided he didn't like dungarees and needed to wear some other trousers but then refused to let me put them on either, and wouldn't let me choose his t shirt but refused to choose as well and aaaaargh. :( We got there in the end, but it was my fault because I was trying to get him ready really quickly and I shouldn't have attempted the dungarees really unless we had more time.

EauRouge DS is exactly the same - hates having his nappy changed but isn't ready to potty train yet. It's so frustrating :(

I do bribe sometimes but I prefer to think about it as modelling negotiation - so I try not to do e.g. if you do X you can have a chocolate button, but something like "Okay, if you do X for me, I will do Y for you. Does that sound fair?" Actually I'm not sure if that is any different... I should get back to my essay anyway.

Re slings, I have a Toddler Patapum which is slightly bigger and more supportive than the Ergo. I love it. To the person who was asking about the shoulders slipping off, do you not have the extra chest clip on yours? That's designed to stop the shoulders pulling off sideways.

Ah, I see what you mean, Bertie. Fair enough.

We need to get a separate UP board on here then, imo! Or maybe the Parenting board should split into two:how about "Gentle Parenting" and "Supernanny-style Parenting"??!

I'm uncomfortable with using food to bribe, mostly because of what it implies about certain types of food.

Like BertieBotts, I'm ok with an exchange of service. Usually it comes out as 'if you help me with this job it'll be done more quickly and I'll have time to do xxxxx with you'. Or 'if you choose your clothes quickly, there'll be enough time to do xxx before we leave for school'. I see it as part of teaching them not to expect to be able to faff about and fit in all their plans for each day. They are often frustrated about not being able to fit in everything they want to do. (Whereas I am resigned to this )

Clothes: we very very often go out of the door half dressed, with me having the rest of the clothes/shoes in a carrier bag, and then get dressed on the stairs because everyone is keen to go out now we've got that far, and the children prefer to be dressed rather than not. This works best if you live in a flat with a communal staircase, of course.

I have had phases with children where they went everywhere naked except for a nappy (but snuggled in a sling, and sometimes I put a little-red-riding-hood fleece cloak over them if that was tolerated). Or where I got the clothes on them once they were outside and chilly. I have also had long coat-free phases with various children, where I've needed to think of other ways of getting them warm enough outside - but there are definitely sensory issues to factor in there. This takes me back to the dance of living with a toddler with sensory issues - life got much easier later!

Tooth brushing deffo not worth fighting over. Look up ways of fighting tooth decay without toothbrushing (short version: carrots and hard cheese are good for teeth cleaning; grain free diet and lots of vit D are just the bees knees)

Nappy changes - learn to do them upright, and then get the child engrossed in something before you do it. If child really hates it, then maybe just go with the naked bottom look? I know a woman who covered the floor of her house in rags for that period where the children hated nappy changes but weren't ready to learn to use the toilet. I lived in a house with cream carpets at the crucial moment so that never worked for me.

neepsntatties were you needing to go and get food for the little one at the park? Because if the little one is breastfed, then I'd have just got me baps out right there and breastfed in the sandpit while negotiating over leaving

On the issue of bribery, a good tip I read is to offer an incentive, but not as a reward. So rather than 'you can have a chocolate button if you lie down for a nappy change' [bribery], you can say, 'Time for a nappy change' (child protests), 'would it help you if I gave you a chocolate button?' [incentive]. That way you're making it clear that the nappy change isn't up for negotiation, but you're acknowledging that your child might need an extra incentive to help them comply with the request.

It was me with the Ergo - it does have a chest strap, but even if it's pulled tight, the shoulders still slip off. The chest strap seems relatively low down to me - enough to stop it being unsafe (the shoulder straps can't fall right off) but not enough to stop them moving.

I had wondered about the Papatum - I might see if I can borrow one.

nappyaddict, another way to transition to washing your hair with just water is to try washing with paraben-free conditioner instead of shampoo. If you search the archives on MN for the curly girl (CG) method you'll find lots of info on it. You have to start by using a tough shampoo once to get all the nasties off your hair, then your natural oils start to come back.

Most of the actual cleaning is done by friction with you scrubbing the scalp. I've recently re-started doing my hair like this and at the moment I have to wash it every day (it was every 2 days with shampoo). But I know that when I was a month or so into the CG method before, I got down to only needing to wash every 3 days.

Oh yes, that's the other thing with bribes/rewards - you assume that the child will find the reward so irresistible that they will comply, but what if they don't? You're just giving them the option not to do it! And then they get upset when you insist they do it anyway - which sort of makes sense, if they thought they were making a choice.

I also hate it when people do this the opposite way around with DS - we were at DS' Nanny's (ie XMIL) house the other day and were about to eat lunch. His hands were grubby so I went to wipe them and he pulled them away and didn't let me. Nanny immediately said "No dinner then." which got my back up because firstly, it's a stupid threat, I'm not going to take away his lunch FFS. Just make him hungry and more likely to play up later, great. And secondly, it turned out he didn't want me to wipe his hands because he wanted to wash them - which is a perfectly acceptable way (probably a better way!) to get them clean before he eats.

I do quite often say "We have to do X before we can do Y" though. Like if he needs to have his nappy changed before his bedtime story. The story still happens and the nappy still happens, it might just take a bit longer.

Ommward, did you ever manage standing-up poo nappy changes? These are the ones DS really struggles with. I mean to the point where I have to hold him down screaming just to get it done and I'm actually worried I might be traumatising him. I can't do the rags on the floor thing, I just can't. I live in a rented house, and it's too messy, so too many things to get dirty, and I just couldn't deal with it at the moment - struggling to keep things acceptably clean/tidy as it is. (And aside from that he now seems to hate being naked as well so insists on having a nappy on as soon as he's clean which is weird as I've always encouraged him to have a bit of nappy-free time during/between changes)

BertieBotts, DS didn't lie down to have any nappy changed from age 9 months until he was out of nappies. He held onto the bathroom stool or side of the bath while I got on with it.

I used to do standing nappy changes with DS, although he's happy to lie down again now. We use cloth though and I've struggled to do up disposables while standing.

I just made sure he was standing on a mat, had loo roll ready in one hand, undid the nappy with the other hand and whisked it away as fast as I could then wiped as fast as I could. You need a potty or loo at hand ideally. With an older child you can get them to bend down so you can wipe properly. I used to distract DS by dropping a favourite toy on the ground in front of him.

Hmm. I can't see either of those working - he tends to save up poos for a couple of days and then do mammoth ones. He still breastfeeds quite a lot too so they tend to be sloppy rather than little firm mini-adult poos.

I wondered if cloth might help though? He's in disposables - we abandoned cloth when he started crawling as that's when he started wriggling too much and I couldn't get them on tight enough so they leaked. Then again it was 9 months, he started standing, we switched to pull-ups, then I just learnt to do normal disposable ones standing up. Back then though he was happy to stand in the bath when he'd done a poo and let me hose him down with the shower! At about 18 months he suddenly became okay with lying down, so it was okay, then progressed to him liking lying down less and less, although now he's also terrified of the shower so the bath thing doesn't work.

I quite often just end up changing him when he's asleep as he's such a heavy sleeper it's easier, but then he doesn't handily do his poos before he goes to sleep, so that's not always possible!

And standing still is an alien concept to him too - perhaps I could get him playing in the sink with some water though.

Jug of water in the bath? Splashing around in a baby bath (uses less water than in the big one)?

Sink & water sounds good as a standing-still tactic.

Clothes - it won't kill them to go out in their PJs for a few days/weeks. My DD1 often goes out and about in her PJs - tho she hates been messy so the minute she gets dirty I can get her dressed. Letting child choose clothes can help (if you are prepared for intresting clothes choices - DD1s current favourite outfit is a purple t-shirt, orange dungarees and spotty multicoloured shorts on top)

Nappy changing - i do poos in front of tv if at home as it is the only way DD2 stays still and wet standing up while distracted. Its amazing how nifty you can get! I amazed a first time mum the other day my changing DD2 while helping DD1 with a jigsaw while drinking a cuppa.

Slings - I have always used a ring sling for hip carries and mei tie for back carrys. Wrap slings were too scary for me but I'm a short arse and the ergo typ carriers always use to slip off my shoulders. Mei ties take a bit of time to learn to tie but then you adjust it to your shape. They are brilliant in pregnancy as you can expand around the bump

Bribes/time out - I think with small toddlers there are sadly some times when only bribes/time out will work. I often have a friends little one as well as my two and DD2 has set medicine times and if i need to get somewhere to do the medicine (minumum requirement is a sink!) i will use bribery as coaxing two toddlers into a toliet is not possible. I personally take the attitude that i limit it, i recognise its not the best way but that reasoning with a toddler is not always possible. With one toddler you could stuff them in the sling/pram but not two!
I use time out when DD1 bites DD2 as she refuses to let go and is she sees DD2 she will bite again and again (she just gets in the zone). I remove her until she has calmed down as I need to deal with DD2 first and thats not possible with DD1 in the room in attack mode. So sometimes i think there isn't an alternative.

Lastly, how do you deal with things that are personally difficult? I was taunted as a child at home and at school for showing emotions and i really struggle when my two cry. I want to let them but everything in me wants them to stop and they are picking up that i get tense. DD1 asked the other day why mummy gets cross when she cries which amazed me as i thought i was hiding my feelings pretty well. I know all parents have a paticular area that they find difficult and i wondered how you cope with it?

Very jealous as well of people who have one good sleeper - fancy a swop? DD2 wakes every 2 hrs, DD1 every 3 - 4.

Bertie, would your CM mind if you brought the child in his PJs with his day clothes in a bag?

No, she probably wouldn't mind, and have done that in the past - issues with it though are, sometimes he falls asleep in his clothes from the night before (dirty from dinner etc) which I'm embarrassed to take him out in, sometimes he sleeps in nothing at all, or just a t-shirt, or short sleeved PJs, and that I've switched from using the big buggy with cosytoes thing to the smaller "summer" buggy now, so he'd be cold some mornings unless I can get him to at least wear long trousers and a jumper. And also I don't want to do it too often as although my CM is very accommodating, I don't want to take the piss.

Monkey - if you have issues you yourself find difficult, perhaps this is a nudge to look at exploring those issues yourself, either through counselling, or holistic therapy (which is a bit "woo" I know, but I can elaborate if you are interested)

I think we agreed upthread that medicine is one of the issues where you might have to be more coercive/forceful than you would like, because it's something that such a young child can't understand, and you can't compromise on it. On the time out thing for biting though, I don't think it's necessarily punitive. Often people post on other threads "I've tried putting him in his room/on the stairs but he just plays with his toys and doesn't seem to care." - now if you're using this separation technique literally just to remove the danger (ie the biter) and also to give them a chance to calm down and get "out of the zone", it doesn't matter if they are crying desolate in their room or whether they are playing happily with their favourite toy.

Scarlett I like the idea of a separate Gentle Parenting/AP board, but I wonder whether it would be a bit offputting. Then again, we have a separate sling board and pushchair board, don't we? I don't know, it's worth asking MNHQ about anyway :)