Would you have had kids if you'd known how tough it was?

[Angiel]

I don't know if I would have, its a bit late now though!!

Now I feel guilty that I don't do ballet classes

I think when you ask the question as Angiel has, it seems easy to say that you never knew how tough it would be, and had you known, you wouldn't have had kids. But if you ask another question, which is: if you were looking back on your life, what would you like to see?? I know VERY FEW women who wouldn't say that they would like to see a child or children in their lives. I know that I have always pictured myself eventually as a mother (of at least 2 children). I waited until I was 35 years old, but I really wanted it at that point and I feared that I would be really lonely and depressed if I had never had children. I don't know if I'm repeating what everyone is saying here, but I think it is a different perspective which makes it much harder to say that you would never have wanted kids if you knew how hard it really is to raise and care for them.

Enid, I certainly don't want to argue about this and I'm no Madonna fan, but I just mentioned as an aside in an earlier post that Madonna didn't 'do' babygroups and I thought your slightly heated reply implied that not to do so was somehow wrong and selfish. I just don't think it is. I never mentioned nappies! Actually there have been quite a few posts on mumsnet from women who do seethe at babygroups.

Oh, my original point was, it might be better no to do things you hate for the sake of your kids if it just makes you resent them. Instead carry on doing things you love - not just mundane things you have to do - and integrate your child into those as far as humanly possible. I think it's awful to feel such sensations of regret and mourning for your old life, which is why when ds was small I made a point of doing my favourite things - galleries, restaurants etc - with him in tow to ease the transition. Even now, I'd rather go to a museum or a cafe than a park. It is only my superhuman and saint-like self-sacrifice that makes me head for the swings. I am delighted that his nanny takes him to do physical stuff, eg swimming because baby swimming is no fun whatsoever for me, much as I adore him. He's unspeakably fabulous tiny, but I am also very much looking forward to sharing my passions with him when he's older.

But Aloha, not all children are well behaved enough to take to museums and galleries etc. Mine certainly isn't!!! (Don't want to get into toddler tantram discussions - thats for another thread!!). Any recent attempt to take my DS out for a 'civilized' lunch has ended in tears (mine!) I know it's a phase and it will pass (hopefully!).

On another point, something that really angers me, not particularly on this thread but in society in general is the assumption that people who don't have children tend to live shallow, meaningless, spending their time & money merely socialising and having a 'good time' (not that there's anything wrong with that) - and that the only 'true' fulfilment is in having children. As an attitude that really annoys me.

Aloha I'm really interested in this. I'm not atacking (honestly) just interested. In a lot of your posts you paint a picture of looking forward to doing various things with your ds. I always notice them becuase they are things I couldn't do in a million years with my ds. How would you feel if you couldn't? Lindy has hinted at that with the behaviour bit- hopefully they could grow out of that- but there are other conditions which could put a spanner in the works.

I'm interested really as I had a very idealistic view of motherhood. One thing I really looked forward to was explaining the world to my children. Well so far that hasn't happened. One thing I have learned though is that you don't need language to have an incredibly close relationship with a child. In fact somehow not having language can make it closer.

Sorry pondering out loud- just curious really.

Have to say I agree with aloha on this one. We went on holiday in April to Venice - had to compromise things a bit, but it worked pretty well. A week at the seaside or at Centre Parcs would drive me round the bend! We did strolling round streets and riding on boats when he was awake, and did an art gallery or museum with him asleep in the pushchair during his lunch time nap (I have made a blackout cover, using the raincover as a pattern, to fit the pushchair to make him go to sleep at lunch - this worked until he was c.20 months old, Venice just got squeezed in thank goodness).
On the subject of the thread - probably too close to call. Son is now 2 (yesterday!); until about 6 months ago the answer would definitely have been no, now I'm not so sure - toddlers are SO much more fun than babies! We are planning on a second - might as well once you've had one I suppose (though not til first starts school as I can't afford two nursery fees!). I was really depressed when I first had ds; i expected having a baby to be all baking cakes and playdough (not that I actually enjoy those things particularly, but you know - doing stuff with him, teaching him to read, going to the zoo). I had no idea how BORING small babies are!!!
I only keep sane by having him in nursery full time. I started getting over my postnatal depression when I got a nursery place. So I suppose I am cherrypicking the best bits of parenting - or at least, cutting down the hours so I can cut out the dull, repetitive, hours of tedium...
The nursery near me wouldn't take them til 5 months, but what kept me going in the mean time was joining the local gym which had a creche. I don't like gyms, but I loved putting a tiny baby in the creche for a couple of hours and having a coffee and a sauna!!! I am going to have another - dh wants more than one and says what if you only have one and it dies?! If he wasn't so convinced I would stop at one. I do love him, and live in fear of anything happening to him; but really, really not sure I'd have had him if I'd known what I know now. Might have done. Don't know. Very reassuring thread - not all mothers except me are motherhood and apple pie! Why do all the ones I meet love it? Are they just lying?

What a fascinating, honest thread! Yep, it can be tough, but I'm sure having ds has changed me for the better 100-fold.

The thing I don't always like is how heightened my emotions can be now - I can be on cloud 9 with ds, feeling absolutely thrilled at something he's said or done, but on the other end of the scale I now find reading/watching anything about children who are desperately ill and dying cuts me to the core and I've often found myself sitting sobbing by ds's bedside when he's asleep, saying how much he's loved and that I couldn't bear it if anything happened to him.

Me too jodee! in fact (embarrasing admission coming up), half way through reading the last Harry Potter book I went and sobbed on ds's bedroon floor with him asleep in his cot, and prayed for God to let him have a nice life and not let nasty, evil people do anything bad to him ever. Or to anyone else's child. In the world. I hardly ever watch the news anymore as I keep having to flip channels when anything remotely sad is reported. How can we channel all this mother love for the world into something productive? Is that what the mother's union was about when it was first started, before it became scones and jam on the vicarage lawn?!

I think maybe you've put your finger on it there, jimjams. Isn't that a very common thing, to want to explain our world to our children? But children come with their own world to show us and we ignore that and refuse to meet them there at our peril. The two worlds will collide at some point! A child with autism is a stark reminder of that because if you don't start from where they're at you're so very screwed but it applies to all parents and kids to some extent, I guess.

aloha, your post at 12.51 said 'So what if Madonna doesnt change dirty nappies?'

Just being pedantic

Good point jimjams. I actually don't dare to hope that dd1 or dd2 will share my love of books, horses, cooking, films, music etc. I'm sure the music at least will just be a huge embarrassment to them but I am hoping their world will be fascinating to me as long as I have them...

Yes it's true Scummy- and there's a whole therapy based on it (called son-rise) where you start by entering their world and see the world totally on their terms. Once you've met them on their terms you start to draw them into ours. It apparently works very well with severly autistic children.

It's funny- it came to me this holiday when I was desperately trying to show ds1 a lobster in an aquarium. he just could not follow my point. Kept saying something vaguely like lobster whilst looking in totally the opposite direction. It kind of clashed with the idealistic view I'd had of having a 4 year old and imparting all my hard earned knowledge (of lobsters!) to them.

I would love to be able to enter ds1's world- I would really really really like to know what it is that he loves about stairs and what they mean to him! I can kind of get an idea of the intensity of passion from talking to high functioning adult autistics (usually about things like telegraph poles!). Anyway hopefully some day he will be able to teach me.

I do think its important not to have expectations- and ds1 has kind of confirmed that one. otherwise surely we'll always be disappiointed or they'll always be pressurised?

Miranda- I love motherhood but I do also like nursery or creches and having time to myself. In fact joined a gym yesterday and have ds2 booked in for creche on Thursday. This is partly so I can begin to take ds1 swimming, but also so I can have some time to myself - and yep a cup of coffee and the paper in peace.

Don't think I haven't thought about it Jimjams. I think if my son was autistic, I would be extremely sad and grieve for what I had 'lost' - albeit something as intangible as a dream and a hope - as well as for his possible problems in the future, particularly when I wasn't there to care for him. It would be a totally different kind of mothering experience than that I dreamed of, but I suppose you rely on love to get you through. Love for your child isn't conditional is it? I loved my ds when he was almost an inert, possetting, pooing newborn to the point of insanity. I mean, I genuinely sat in hospital wondering what I'd do when the baby modelling scouts saw this fabulous specimen of babyhood, and I wasn't sure he was ready for international stardom. Ahem. I have no problems with the concept of loving a special needs child. And who knows what the future will hold. Everything in your life can change in a heartbeat. So the short answer is, I don't know, and I hope I never have to find out. I do get a great deal of joy out of thinking about ds's possible future. I am genuinely sorry if this seems insensitive. Perhaps it's my impatient nature showing.
But my original point about doing the things you love was really aimed at those posters who talked so eloquently about hating their 'new' lives, and I was really wondering out loud if it might be possible for them to fit their child into their old life rather than feel they had to throw out everything they loved and cast themselves adrift in motherhood. Madonna was only quoted because that seems to have been her philosophy and her kids do seem to actually still like her. And I suppose I was also saying that it's not pure selfishness to do so as many things that adults do is fascinating for children. Indeed the attachment parenting gurus say this too! I am sure than anyone who has ever read anything else I've posted would agree that I don't advocate ignoring kids needs, even if they do think I'm a loon in every other way. This thread is a very interesting conversation to me.

Ah, but Enid, to be very pedantic indeed, I was referring to my 12.02 post. No nappies there. My subsequent post was after your comment, which I suspected (perhaps wrongly) was about those dreaded nappies

Jimjams, I too hope my son will teach me and surprise me. And I do try very, very hard to see things from his point of view.

Didnt mention the Madonna nappy thing till you brought it up aloha!
Sorry everyone, this is dull, aloha lets just agree that her music is indeed crap and leave her mothering skills out of it.

Aha Aloha- in that case if you ever have an auti kid this is what you need:

www.autistics.org/library/dontmourn.html

I totally agree with you about the fitting into a new life stuff btw.
I'd like to meet you one day- I think ds1 would suprise you

Actually its funny re-reading that. Autism has its downside but I think it reveals an intensity of emotions I can only guess at. For example certian pieces of music (classical generally) move ds1 in a way that I can't imagine. I love music, but by god he really loves music. This seems quite common - and something that some adut autistic friends have described well. I suppose its a bit like manic depression. There are bad sides to it, but the highs are high!

I remember being soooo happy when pregnant, and imagining holding my baby. Then, as they were wheeling me up to the ward after delivery, ds tucked into my covers, I remember thinking, 'S**t, what have I done? This is for keeps.' I have never been so unsure of having done the right thing. That feeling stayed with me for a LONG time, and it spoilt my early memories of ds. He was also a hard baby, and hated being held closely or cuddled. That didn't inspire bonding!

However, the last 6 months have been amazing, and he is such a special 2 year old. That is not to say that he is not a complete monkey at times! Sometimes, I look at him asleep, and my heart melts. Other times, I think 'It all starts again tomorrow.' However, you get up, and go on as usual. He is just the type of child who needs to use up a lot of energy. It hasn't stopped me wanting another one, although it did mean that broodiness has only just arrived, so there will be at least a 3 year gap!

Personally, although dirty nappies don't bother me to the extent that I would pay someone else to do them, I can't say that my bond with ds has been enriched by doing them

so much interesting stuff here, where to start?

lindy, i agree with you in the sense that i've never been able to take ds just around and about with me. well obviously i have taken him out, but not in the tranquil, enjoyable way that i read some mumsnetters have been able to.

when he was a baby, he would not sleep during the day and was very lively and demanded very high quality entertainment! this did not include sitting happily in a cafe, cinema, "mum & baby" activity usually!

i would read posts on mumsnet about how easy it was to just take your baby anywhere, and think "is mine from another planet?"

now that he is a toddler, certain things are easier, e.g. he has taken to cafe life (in small doses!), but the same basic personality traits are there.

we do take him to restaurants, museums, cafes, shopping or whatever, from time to time, but he gets bored easily with these activities, and i don't blame him. his reaction is entirely age-appropriate, and i try to see things from his perspective, and think "well, yes, darling, i would be bored with this if i were you..." but obviously we persevere, for our own sanity and because of course, one day we hope he will appreciate these outings.

think someone mentioned holidays, specifically venice? have scrolled up and down and can't find this post now. think this is the single biggest thing which has been hard for me. i just could not imagine ds on the sort of cultural holiday we used to do. in fact, we have tried it and were all miserable. again, i don't see this as "difficult" or "bad" behaviour on his part. i'm sure a lot of 2 yr olds would have limited patience with galleries, museums, ancient sites, food markets, or just people watching in a square with a coffee for the afternoon - in short all the things i used to really love about going away.

i understand it is a cliche of family holidays that the best ones are where the children are happy. we have certainly found that putting his needs in this respect high up the agenda has meant a better experience for all - but this has been at the expense of my holiday needs/desires tbh.

there must be a better balance, but we haven't found it yet, and i'm very envious of those who can say, "oh we took our 2yr old round Azerbaijan - we all had a marvellous time, he loved it..." or is that just jeanette hyde in the observer? yeah right! not us in this life!

sorry this is concentrating on very shallow aspects of self-denial, i suppose! warning, may be back later to discuss "deeper issues".

dinosaur, I too love the mellower Aphex Twin tracks - so would bond with your son I think

Hey, BK, I think travel editors get posh paid-for holidays with all the admin sorted for them (at least that's what I tell myself when I too read those articles and think 'bloody hell, will I make it to the local shops with both kids in tow?'

Oh and no, Jimjams, I don't go to baby clinic or M&T groups, I totally agree with you on that one.