Would you have had kids if you'd known how tough it was?

[Angiel]

I don't know if I would have, its a bit late now though!!

I think I'm going to get into trouble here for sounding a tad unsympathetic my heart goes out to people like who are in crisis and I'm full of admiration for those who do stretch the possibilities.
It seems the frustration comes from people feeling they cant carry on as they did before and I see that, but it isnt giving up anything it's just approaching things from a different angle - so what if you cant go to a gallery/pub/club/longhaul flight or whatever for a couple of years. Find other things to enjoy until you can. I'm sorry to sound a bit narky here but I do get a little fed up with people hitting their heads against the brick wall of childrens capabilitiies at different stages in their lives. Do a short walk now you can do a long walk later. Both can be fulfilling
Is it possible to look at what we call regrets, for not having done this or that, as futile. Who's to say how things may have turned out if we had lived any other way.
I think what I'm trying to say but not making it sound very positive is we cant have the OTHER lives we imagine we could/would have had without children they are make believe lives. We do however have these very complex often wonderful frequently terrifying lives with our children. All you mumsnet people should look at what you have become as a result of your new lives how broad and varied and articulate and honest and funny. My dd would say 'you are awesome - which is Mummy a word which means more than superbrilliant'

Oh dear I think I better go rescue the baked potatoes....
Oh dear

Dinosaur- we get shown those little things as well. Ds1 will spot clocks, washing machines and stairs, however small in any picture, and however brief in any tv footage. The number of washing machines I would have missed.

Ds2 had a kind of rocky start to life. I was worried beforehand about bonding with him, but his early breathing difficulties brought everything rushing in.

bubbly, think i agree with you in essence, but don't think that the other possibilities you mention are immediately obvious. i think they come with trial and error and also that the boundaries of the possible expand a great deal as the child gets older. perhaps it is just me, but the transition from enjoying an action packed w/e in ny to a thinking a holiday with friends and their kids in dorset is the bees knees has been a gradual process, not just something that happened instantly in the delivery room!

Dinosaur/ Enid, Aphex Twin videos really unnerve me .

Aloha, I agree, this thread is like an interesting conversation. Your comment about the model scouts when you were in hospital made me laugh too, thanks. Like bk, will come back later to contribute some more but this is all fascinating stuff.

Bubbly - I don't think any of us who may have misgivings about having children are asking for sympathy - of coure there is NOTHING wrong with our lives (well, speaking for myself) but this thread has generated a really interesting debate and it is great to see women (or men, if they want to join in) speaking so frankly about what is often seen as a 'taboo' subject.

Yes, I do miss my life pre-child, not for 'social' reasons, but I really did have a very fulfilled life, sorry if I sound like a do-gooder, but I was able to devote a lot of time to voluntary work which is severely curtailed (not entirely of course) now. For example: I am no longer in a position to be 'on call' to help women leave a violant home in the middle of the night; I cannot (without huge logistical arrangements) cook a sunday lunch for isolated elderly people - and yes, this is what I miss, and quite honestly, I genuinely feel I was making a very positive contribution to society: life is now very, very different and I am not sure if bringing up one child is 'equal' to my previous contribution - if that makes sense.

Lindy surely there is something that you could do though- even if it is different than before. I've just decided to apply to work as a volunteer for tribunal support for the National Autistic Society (offering support to people taking LEA's to tribunal- I think it involves liasing with the lawyers etc). It'll take up about 4 hours per week- at home mainly , but I think I'll get a lot out of it as well. If they'll have me of course.

Surely there's something you could do- even just for a few hours a week. I agree it is good to widen the focus somewhat!

Oh Jimjams - I promise you I still do LOADS of voluntary work - meals on wheels, run M & T group(Hate it but no other B*** volunteers!!!), now on playgroup committee, church stuff,youth club, newsletters,fund-raising, blah blah blah
BUT- it has to be so 'regimented', so 'organised' - I just miss the spontaneity of 'bigger' things I suppose.
Sorry, I am aware that I may be coming across as feeling sorry for myself which I really don't want to - this is such an interesting thread, am really enjoying reading everyone's comments and opinions.

Oh I see. Blimey hats off to you if you run M+T- I'd run a mile!

For the record, not all mothers feel guilt.
I don't.
Me and my kids have a great lark lots of the time and yes they drive me nuts at times but I don't feel guilty.
What on earth about?

Summed up perfectly ks.

Those of you integrating your kids into the things you have always liked doing like restaurants, ballet, the theatre, do you by any chance only have one child?

Fancy integrating my three (4,2,1) into your daily lives?

I could NOT take my two to anywhere civilised, ds (14months) has this bad habit of taking his food out of his mouth, smearing around his head and then putting it back in again, dd (4)ALWAYS talks with her mouth full

bossykate - agree very much with your observations on the shallower disadvantages of children - looking forward to your deeper musings

jasper - agree with you two - although on balance the positives far outweigh the negatives, I really don't bother feeling guilty when I've been a bad mother - neglectful, irritable, angry, unreasonable etc. Also agree that integration with one child may be possible but when they multiply it gets rather more difficult. But "the more the merrier" is our philosophy. And this is just 10 years (or thereabouts) out of our lives of hopefully 70-80 years.

I don't do guilt much either, Jasper. I think that's because I have an odd mixture of selfishness and optimism strongly ingrained in my personality. I genuinely think that my kids have a nice enough childhood- pretty much everyone loves them and thinks they're great, including me. And for the record I'd definitely do it all over again. Yes they annoy the hell out of me sometimes and I occasionally yell like a fishwife at them but life would be so very dull for them if I didn't go ballistic sometimes so I don't dwell on it too much.

DH and I have integrated our children into our lives far more than we have changed things in order to suit them. Our holidays haven't changed hugely - have taken them to Sicily, Russia, Australia etc which are the sorts of places we used to go before having children. We also still go away every 4th weekend or so, although it is now far more likely to within the UK than the European jaunt it used to be. Our trip to Venice at Christmas was one on the best places we have visited for children. They were totally captivated by it all and it made for a very easy holiday. Travel and outings are just really important for DH and I as both of us hate having an entire weekend at home. I would sacrifice just about anything before I would give up that aspect of our lives.

We just find we need to take things more slowly and we always do our utmost to avoid stress points - i.e. take picnics with us whenever possible, drive while they are asleep and don't try and do too much. I also think it helps that neither DH and I are interested in spending holidays sitting on a beach reading. Although DS (4) is not especially well behaved, he is certainly easier when he is with the two of us and when he is seeing something new. I do take them both to the cinema and children's theatre but would try and avoid an extended shopping trip / sitting at a cafe if I'm on my own with them.

We are certainly not without

Actually, I personally don't mind having a thoroughly unexciting life (though do hanker very much for w/e in NY) so my comments weren't about me. I did a lot before I had ds at 38, went places, stayed in great hotels, met celebs, wasted a lot of money on clothes and shoes and had a really top job in women's magazine journalism which, incidentally, I hated. I adore freelancing and being at home is just fab for me. But I know some people do resent not living their old lives and it spoils their relationship with their children (see this thread!) which I can also understand. I don't think anyone here is asking for sympathy. My dh and I say how lucky we are with ds every single day, not because he's so intrinsically fabulous (though he is, obviously) but because we love him so much.

Oh wow, did my mother do guilt! She felt guilty about absolutely everything...one thing I noticed from an early age was that her guilt never actually stopped her doing the thing she felt guilty about 'Oh I really screamed at you, I feel so guilty'...so then of course as a child I wanted to make her feel better so I'd try and console her...end result was that she could basically do anything she felt like as long as she harped on about how guilty she felt about it.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I now don't do guilt either, its a completely wasted emotion. Learn from your mistakes and move on!

Hows this for trivial. The only time I seriously regretted having ds was a few weeks later when I saw my ruined body in the mirror. I'm still traumatised enough by it for it to put me off having another.

Oh go on Aloha, go for it. You're kind of used to the devastation second time round - anyway there's always surgery, look at Demi Moore.

Please have another then you can report back on the joys of museums with two tinies with opposing interests

In response to some of the things raised below

Bossy kate I agree wiht you that it is a learning curve but not necessarily a tough one. One of the problems is we are fed a sickly fantasy of family life(including holidays outingsetc) by the media and the reality is so so different. The cliches of family holidays wiht rosy couples cycling off into the sunset trailing cheerful smiling children behind them in a plastic wonderland are enough to put anyone off the idea of a famiy holiday but we dont have to do what the brochures tell us. I have had more fun on 1 metre of footpath looking at bugs and leaves than I have ever had looking round tate modern on my own .

Still struggling to make myself clear here I think but if we constantly compare what we think we should have (or are told is possible) wiht what we have got then some sort of conflict between the two is inevitable.

Lindy I disagree that people dont think something is very wrong with their lives a large portion of this thread is a liturgy to that exactly. You and I may not, but some of the posts here are full of despair. I truly believe that the job you are doing as an intelligent considered and loving parent is as great a contribution to society now and in the long term as your admirable list of voluntary work. Voluntary work - an unpaid unrewarded and often criticised attempt to change the world for the better in the face of selfishness, materialism, selfishness, lack of funding etc- sounds like parenting to me.

KS - love the journey

Bells2 - your point is similar in a way to what I am trying to say (badly) You are carrying on as before but with adaptations and flexiblity to accomodate the needs of your whole family. You can enjoy a version of life which fits all and is a type of compromise.

I was wondering this morning on the school run how we would react to the same question vis a vis our partners ...... Compromise is really hard work but the rewards are infinite. My sister is single and freely admits she has lost the ability to compromise not only does it drive her nuts that I cant respond to an invite without taking 4 other people into consideration but she also sadly admits that she has lost a large portion of her friends, her relationships dont last and a large part of her family find her too unaccomodating. She accredits this to being hopelessly selfish because she can be.I know where I would rather be (even at 5 am with a noisy two year old prising my eyelids apart).

bubbly, not sure i "get" your comments to me? surely we all try to be adaptable and flexible and most of us are media-savvy enough to reject the rosy images portrayed? i don't think it is an earth shatteringly controversial comment to say that many 2 yr old won't have much patience with "cultural" outings. as i said in my earlier post, i envy anyone who appears to be able to carry on with their old life with minimal compromise. personally, i can't see that in my life, with my interests and my particular child!