Would you have had kids if you'd known how tough it was?

[Angiel]

I don't know if I would have, its a bit late now though!!

nappies are the least of one's worries, imo!

my thoughts on this subject are beyond my skill to articulate atm...

And another thing (Enid paws ground, steam coming from nose )...I presume your husbands could wash their own socks if they had to - so how does that analogy work? Dd2 at 9 months can't manage to change her own nappy yet so she's kind of reliant on someone else to do it for her. She also hasn't managed to wipe up her own vomit, change her wee-soaked clothes or wipe her own nose. So I don't resent doing them for her, and yes, it does seem to me that I do all those things because I'm her mum and I love her and I want her to be comfortable. So it kind of does add to our relationship IMO.

I don't mind changing nappies, actually. However, if I had someone else to do it, I'm not sure I would change pooey ones! Luckily ds is down to one a day most days and dh does 50%. I'm not sure I'm a better parent for nappy changing. Does my ds feel more loved because I do it? Maybe but maybe not.

Enid I think i know what you're saying and agree.
I work so miss out on a lot of Charlotte's day so like to be as 'hands on as I can' when I'm with her.
Having said that I have a fab Mum who lives 10 mins away, a great dad who lives 5 mins away, great PIL who live 2 mins away etc etc so am out a lot still living my life. I personally think I'm a better mum by not feeling chained to the house and my DD gets to see a lot of her g.parents etc, so everyone's a winner and I'm very lucky.
Sorry if being positive offends people on here but I love being a mum and don't feel ashamed to be a positive poarson so I'm saying it again!
Being a mum is the best thing to ever happen to me.
I don't miss my old life, I still have it but am naturally slowing down as when I do go out it's takes me a long time to get over it.
Your - most positively - Thomcat :0

i do agree that peforming all those little services for little ones increases the bond (v. noticeable for dads i think) - but opting out of one or two little things probably wouldn't make all that much difference...

I'm with Enid on this one and don't think that never having chnged your own baby's nappy is something to be proud of. I know a lot of fathers who cherry pick the aspects of parenting they want to be involved with (usually the bits that are obviously fun). I personally don't see this as healthy in terms of the relationship.

I know what Enid means and I agree. I don't think it's a case of not changing nappies or whatever- it's just Madonna picking and choosing the bits she'll deign to get involved in. Surely having a child is unconditional. No problems if they're happy for you to go to work and you're happy, no problems if you can afford to have a nanny to help out, but surely you have to put the children first? My Mum worked, but I always knew I came first, and I guess that's how I would like my children to feel.

As for nappies - well I didn't expect to still be changing them for a 4 year old. It's not a big deal. Much harder things to deal with.

now vomit- I'm not good with. baby vomit OK, child vomit is a no-no. If dh is around he deals with that, if not I do.

thinking more about this as my own mums having a few problems about motherhood at the moment.im 30 and havent lived at home for 8 years now .there was an 8 year gap between me and my brother and he last week moved out of the family home for the first time.my mum although not a gibbering wreck is finding it hard to adjust to there just being her and my dad.since he's moved out ive eaten more at my parents than at home !lol
thinking also being a stay at home mum i often wish someone would take dd off my hands for an hour or two but when shes out with my parents etc i miss her dreadful and count the clock till she gets home!

If Madonna has never changed one of her children's nappies, that can only mean that she has never been on her own with them. She must be missing out on some aspects of parenting if she never has any time alone with her kids.

This is interesting as I get a lot of emails via my site from women who have had abortions and regret them bitterly. So my philosophy has always been that you would never regret having your child, but may well regret having a termination. I know this thread is not about terminations, but it does make me think.

When I was pregnant with dd I had been married for 3 months, had soooo many plans, a degree under my belt and we had just been travelling. A baby was the last thing on my mind. I chose to carry on with the pregnancy, although I did get very depressed, and that depression turned into something more serious. Luckily however neither me nor the baby came to any harm and now I wouldn't give her up for the world. I do have regrets, such as not having a career, not finishing travelling, not getting to know my partner as a husband, etc. I feel that there are so many things I have left undone. But I cannot ever regret having dd, no matter how hard it gets. I have never felt this much love for anyone before, and her achievements become my achievements, so she does make up for the things I feel that I have lost.

So my answer would be that I regret the timing of the pregnancy, but I could never ever regret dd.

Agree with you Angiel about Madonna, and totally understand what you mean when you say how depressing it feels to fail as a parent. I think it goes with the territory. I always feel worse when I let my children down for whatever reason than, say, my dh, because they look to me as no.1 in their lives to provide for them in every way.

Also think I might have inadvertently given the idea that my life was hugely exciting pre-kids. It wasn't especially. I just meant that you can't get back to not having the major responsibility that having children is with all the mental baggage that is attached to it.

Sorry, want to say more, but 3 month old dd3 is roaring on my knee - you see, no time to myself anymore!

beautifully put rhubarb.

I've just snatched a minute while DD2 is kipping (at last) to read this; actually, Rhubarb, without getting into massive row over it I do know women who've terminated and not regretted it. And if I'm honest, which I don't think I was sufficiently earlier (sorry - have new baby, am trying to look on bright side) there have seriously been moments, with both my daughters, when I've thought 'I can't cope, something has to give'. I remember thinking, when dd1 was about the same age dd2 is now (4 weeks) 'The only way out of this constant screaming is to go and throw myself under a train' - and the other night I found myself thinking, in very similar circs 'I have to ring social services tomorrow, and put her in care or up for adoption'. And I would hate to be a SAHM - and sometimes contemplate my days when I have both of them (and did even when it was my day with just dd1) with real fear. And yet I love dd1, in particular, with a fierce and violent passion - like www, it took time to fall as in love as I am now - and dd2 is wedged there in my heart as well. Motherhood does my head in...

One of the things I really HATE, as it happens, is the way HVs etc treat you as generic, brainless 'mum'. I hate being patronised with pathetic leaflets about weaning. I hate being entreated to go to the baby clinic for no particular reason, as far as I can see, apart from being reassured about my baby's weight when I wasn't worried anyway. And directed towards M&T groups when I'm actually at the doctor's surgery for completely different reasons. Same with hospitals in the past.

DD2 is wailing again so I'm back trying to work out what the hell is the problem...and this pregnancy I chose?

Well, I have to say, if not liking changing pooey nappies much (and getting out of it when I can) means I'm a crap mother, sign me up. I'm a bit taken aback actually. Never thought that was one more thing to add to the list of things that make women feel guilty about parenting. Blimey. Really stirred that one up, didn't I?

I wrote to a friend who had just had her first child once to say that she would probably, at one point at least, happily hurl her wailing child out of a nearby window. It was a joke (obviously) but she said it helped to know that not everyone existed in a permanent pink love haze. And she, like me, is now a committed baby-worshipper. I recently missed my holiday flight (out of date passport, long story) and dh, sd and ds went off without me. Cue tears at the airport and me panicking and thinking, 'but what if the plane crashes and I'm not on it to say goodbye to ds and give him his last cuddle?'. Afterwards I thought, blimey, I've never loved anyone enought to wish myself ON a crashing plane with them before. But then again, I enjoyed having the house completely to myself for a day and a night.

YES YES YES YES YES YES

My answer to the original question would be Yes. It's definitely one of the best things I've ever done.

I don't know what I'd be like as a SAHM though and feel I get the best of both worlds, the money, social aspect and chance to exercise my brain that comes from working, and the loveliness of getting home to dd each evening.

Also I think the whole nappies debate was more about not putting in the time with your kids and therefore doing the mundane things...than changing nappies per se.

YES I would still have had my dd although I miss my old life dreadfully...as a mum I feel guilty and useless about everything all of the time...I rush around, trying to keep up and fail miserably which makes me feel like I'm failing to be a good mother. This is the only "occupation" that has made me feel like this - before, I was quite successful in whatever I did....I hate feeling so inadequate all the time

YES I would still have had my dd although I miss my old life dreadfully...as a mum I feel guilty and useless about everything all of the time...I rush around, trying to keep up and fail miserably which makes me feel like I'm failing to be a good mother. This is the only "occupation" that has made me feel like this - before, I was quite successful in whatever I did....I hate feeling so inadequate all the time

I'm the first person to make myself scarce when there is the opportunity to have someone else take care of a stinky nappy. That is however completely different to setting yourself up so that you are never ever alone with your child with there always being a paid employee to hand to do it for you.

motherinferior- if you don't want to go to baby clinic don't go!!!! I've been about twice with ds2- I went when he was losing weight. Once that was sorted I stopped going. All the clinics seemed to be in the afternoon anyway and there was no way I was taking baby plus auti child to a clinic. Would have been horrendous.

Once thing that always strikes me in this type of discussion is the guilt thing. I could certainly do more than I do (especially for ds1 - for example I haven't done any speech therapy with his today- and he's been very stimmy and I haven't really tried to stop it particularly wheras on a good mummy day I would) but then I figure well I'm doing my best. It's good enough, the kids come first, so what if I'm not the absolute best mum in the world- I do my best. maybe learning to live with guilt is the key to a happy motherhood.

Aloha- it's not the not wanting to change nappies per se that's odd about Madonna. She reminds me a bit of a victorian well to do family. You know where the children would have been dressed up and presented to their parents. Of course could be totally unfair as I have no idea what she is like with her children- but it sort of sounds like she can't be bothered with a lot of her children's lives.

I suspect Madonna is rarely alone with her kids because she's hardly ever alone - security etc. I have no idea what she's like as a mother and really don't know if she really said that about nappies or was joking or exaggerating for effect. I've seen her pushing her own pushchair and has been photographed out hand in hand with her daughter. Of course she's probably bonkers. Most famous zillionaires are and she's a rubbish singer though IMO All I said was that she said she didn't 'do' babygroups, but took her daughter to work and shopping and to eat and stuff, and I actually don't think it's wicked to integrate your child into your life. As a kid my mum took me her ballet classes, to the theatre, round the Louvre, and, as contrast, to her job as a cleaner in an old people's home - yes, our fortunes did rise and fall somewhat. Those are some of my most abiding happy memories of my childhood. I saw Nureyev and Fonteyn dance, I met interesting adults and read a hell of a lot. I did go to the odd kiddie thing such as a Sunday School kindergarten, but my parents felt no need to be with me there. I don't think our parents did join in with us the way we feel so guilty about nowadays. I don't know but I think some of the feelings of failure and despair here might arise from the sensation of going against your nature and forcing yourself to do things that really feel alien. It might be sensible in these cases, perhaps, to focus on what you enjoy. That's all!
I know a mother of two adults who told me once that she regretted having her second daughter as it meant the end of her career.

I think you're right aloha- defintely seemed to be less guilt. I used to go with Mum to work as well (she was/is a district nurse). She worked in a very deprived area so it was all interesting. I don't think they felt the same need to entertain us, improve us or stimulate us or whatever- and I guess we were entertained and stimulated anyway.

I don't really 'get' your point aloha, I'm sure everyone here integrates their children into their everyday life...if everyday life is allowed to be as mundane as going to the supermarket, digging the veg patch, feeding the chickens, sorting the laundry, meeting friends for coffee and going to cafes, then thats pretty much all me and dds do! Why would you think anyone would think that was wicked? Isn't that just the way life is?

I'm sure there isn't anyone out there (but feel free to correct me ) that ONLY goes to mother and toddler groups while seething with resentment inside because they aren't in Starbucks. Most of us do both!