My friend has just ( temporarily) lost custody of her dc..

[Ginisnnice]

As above. They were taken from the home on an order from the family court and placed with the father without warning.

She is only allowed to see them once a week, the grandparents not at all.

She says that the father has managed this as he has accussed her of " badmouthing" him to the kids and as this is seen to be harmful to the dc, in setting one parent against another, he now has custody whilst the court process reaches any further challenge.
My friend says this is unfair and the result of a mysoginistic judge.
And that her husband has used this accusation against her and is untrue.

My understanding is that there should be an independant professional to hear the dc s wishes? My friend says the dc did see someon e " but they were rubbish"..does anyone know if dc would have their wishes taken into account. ? On what basis could this even happen?

Y.

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Welcome to the world of men. They get shafted in family courts par for the course.

Our former neighbour temporarily lost her children and I can assure you, it was everyone else's fault bar her own in her opinion!

the children were appointed their own solicitor, and her sister was appointed Guardian. Unfortunately she couldn't keep them safe as our neighbour ''kidnapped'' one back so they went into public care.

Moving forward that was 18 months ago, she has a new very supportive partner who helped her get over her demons. She went back through the steps she was told to undertake, and as such, has the children back now.

As others have said, you are hearing one side of the story and yes at times she is going to feel totally picked on. But its not done lightly and with plenty of warning.

It would not be the first time social workers have backed an abusive man

She's lying to you.

Definitely, but it's not the most likely situation here.

Sorry to all those naive people who think this situation is not possible.

Once you embark on divorce with kids between you, your life is governed by the judge assigned to you in family court.

If there's some court ordered visitation and primary residence for the children, that can be changed if a former spouse presents a motion to the court alleging alienation and arguing forcefully enough to convince the judge. Sadly, there are judges out there who are ignorant of abusers' tactics and tend to believe men who come before then telling stories about their ex wives. Abuse by court is very much a thing. Some judges refuse to see it.

OP your friend urgently needs legal advice. It's possible to have a guardian ad litem appointed to represent the children here, with the cost of this lawyer shared by the parents. The guardian ad litem can get to the bottom of what's happening here and present a report to the judge.

The friend could also petition for both her and her ex to do family therapy with a view to restoring good relations between the children and both parents. She should aim for the guardian ad litem first though because she shouldn't admit the accusation of alienation under any circumstances.

Social services are not involved when a judge orders a change to visitation or custody previously agreed upon and ordered by the court.

This is not a welfare/ neglect case. It's a case of a father brunging a motion before the family court alleging alienation by the mother. It's heard in post divorce court, where the really evil abusers stalk their prey.

The judge doesn't have to refer to social services at all. He hears the arguments from both sides and makes up his mind. The mother is simply told in the courtroom that from X date the children are to be taken to live with the ex. An order to that effect is signed by the judge. If the mother refuses she can be sent to prison for contempt of court.

Family court judges can be women too.

Such a tough situation, especially for the children.
I was a family solicitor in England for over a decade. Unfortunately there have been incidents of children being removed from a parent / family for simply no reason.

Likewise, there has also been plenty of incidents of children being left with unsuitable parents.

Unfortunately the court and child protective services do make mistakes and often there are incidents similar to this. Especially in domestic violence relationships, which have broken down, and the perpetrator manages to further manipulate the court to spite the other parent.

Of course too, there absolutely could be a lot more to the story. However it is extremely foolish to completely dismiss her version of events ‘because that absolutely cannot happen’ or to assume she is being untruthful. She may well be telling the absolute truth and this would definitely not be an isolated case.

Just be a good friend and ensure she seeks legal advice.

She needs to get urgent legal advice, get all the court documentation to see what he has actually said and get her own application in asap. He needs to have made some pretty serious allegations (true or untrue) for a without notice hearing to be held.

Hmm. Give me leave to doubt that given the number of abusive men who manage to
use the court system to continue their abuse and then complain all over social media how unfair it all is...

It has squat to do with social workers as others have pointed outbut what a handy mental scapegoat you've created for yourself there...

She says they do not.want to be with him .she strongly manitains he was abusive to her and that he is using the courts to control her and affect hee life by stating she is doing the aniliating of him and the abuser( him) is calling her an abuser via this route.

Yes, a familiar story with the really evil abusers. They use the courts to control and punish their former wives. They are accomplished liars and tend to be believed by judges.

I've been on the receiving end of this kind of abuse. It ended because I succeeded in getting a guardian ad litem appointed. The judge apologised to me when the guardian ad litem presented his report. But I lost nine years of my life wondering when the next motion for contempt of court would arrive in the post.

Yes, a familiar story with the really evil abusers. They use the courts to control and punish their former wives. They are accomplished liars and tend to be believed by judges.

Of course women never lie or can abuse can they?

Apart from the fact they do. OP does not have the full story and does not have any real idea as to what is going on.

Ex Social Worker here - there is absolutely no way the children would have been removed from Mum, and all contact with Grandparents stopped, just for a bit of bad mouthing of Dad. There is obviously way, way more to this story than your friend is telling you.

They have been in proceedings for a year. She will have been expected to do XYZ and had many opportunities to do so and presumably she hasn't and had tested the judge's patience to the point where they have removed her children.
judges can be misogynistic and clueless about DV but once you're in court you have to play the game. A parent who refuses to do what the judge wants them to do is playing a dangerous game. Understanding this is the way to survive private proceedings. Common sense won't always win especially where the judge's idea of common sense doesn't chime with the parent's idea.

basically she's not being honest with you about why this happened and she sounds like she's still I. Denial about her part in it.

So from what a few of you say
She has done right in that
-There is an independant person allocated for the dc.( says they not good tho)
-There is to be another hearing to challenge this

What i cannot understand is the grandparents are not allowed to.see the boys . Could they also get accused of alienation.?
They are devastated and apparently close to.breakdown.The dc had a very close relationship with dg , looked after them since birth, took them on school runs etc. They would in no way harm dg intentionally.
If what some of you suggest, that it is possible that he is , as my friend says he is, an abuser , could he could also be seeking revenge via the court on the gps? .
Does the alienation concept get applied to gp also ?.
I am so glad that dc have their own independant person. Presumably they are experts and the voice of the children heard.

It's really impossible to say here, but maybe the grandparents have been stopped from contact because the judge doesn't trust them not to bring them to the mother or pass on messages.

CloseYourEyesAndSee What sort of things will she have been expected to do.
(She had full care)
It seems scary that the testing of a judges patience would/ could result in dc removal from their home.

It's literally impossible to say what she has been asked to do. It depends on the circumstances of the case.

Ive just re read most of rhe thread.
I realise that a significant number of people say there must be more to this.
There are also some posters that maintain that abusers can use the ( possibly) mysoginistic family court to further abuse his /,her x.
This is exactly what she maintains.
She said that he was a controling abuser and continues in court to be so.
I really hope that the suggestion of family thearapy could be applied here.
Most importantly that the dc get the best outcome and their wishes heard.
I am.concerned that if the dc have said they want to be with their mother, or both parents via access, that the alienation accusation isnt stronger than this wish. But also i imagine if the judge.believes that alienation has occured of the dad from the mother then the judge would rule that the dc not seeing the alienator is the right decision.?

I am really afraid for the dc that if what the mother says is true she is being kept from them as an act of further abuse. If so this is terrifying.

The reason why I'm advising OP to be supportive friend, but remain neutral, is because the friend's story doesn't hang together.

She says removed suddenly and without warning, then says that a court case has been going on for about a year, then leaves you with the impression that the voice of the children was not heard, then says it was but the person was no good.

Those sorts of contradictory statements do not leave a good impression of accuracy or straightforwardness.

(I do wonder how she came across in court, and if her next admission will be that she was warned but didn't believe it would really happen)

They would not have removed the kids from her care just because her ex was 'bad mouthing' her so there has to be more to it.

I think there must be more to this than you know.

In my experience it takes a lot more than that for the children to be removed.