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My friend has just ( temporarily) lost custody of her dc..

140 replies

Ginisnnice · 14/06/2022 20:23

As above. They were taken from the home on an order from the family court and placed with the father without warning.

She is only allowed to see them once a week, the grandparents not at all.

She says that the father has managed this as he has accussed her of " badmouthing" him to the kids and as this is seen to be harmful to the dc, in setting one parent against another, he now has custody whilst the court process reaches any further challenge.
My friend says this is unfair and the result of a mysoginistic judge.
And that her husband has used this accusation against her and is untrue.

My understanding is that there should be an independant professional to hear the dc s wishes? My friend says the dc did see someon e " but they were rubbish"..does anyone know if dc would have their wishes taken into account. ? On what basis could this even happen?

Y.

.

OP posts:
RedPlumbob · 15/06/2022 08:23

Also, not everyone goes through family court following a relationship break down. The vast majority don’t. High conflict ex couples use family court. Whether that’s due to abuse, or then just despising each other. But it’s certainly not the majority.

Your friend will have all the court papers. There will be stacks of them. Read them. If she doesn’t let you - you have your answer.

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 15/06/2022 08:35

RedPlumbob · 15/06/2022 08:23

Also, not everyone goes through family court following a relationship break down. The vast majority don’t. High conflict ex couples use family court. Whether that’s due to abuse, or then just despising each other. But it’s certainly not the majority.

Your friend will have all the court papers. There will be stacks of them. Read them. If she doesn’t let you - you have your answer.

She's not allowed to let anyone else read them without court permission as far as I understand.

MidwichCuckoo · 15/06/2022 09:04

There was a programme about kids being removed and placed with an abusive parent against their will. It was shocking
www.channel4.com/programmes/torn-apart-family-courts-uncovered-dispatches

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 15/06/2022 09:08

MidwichCuckoo · 15/06/2022 09:04

There was a programme about kids being removed and placed with an abusive parent against their will. It was shocking
www.channel4.com/programmes/torn-apart-family-courts-uncovered-dispatches

Maybe RTFT. That has been linked 3 times now.

MichelleScarn · 15/06/2022 09:15

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 15/06/2022 09:08

Maybe RTFT. That has been linked 3 times now.

And is that programme completely unbiased? Does it talk to all parties or is it just like OPs friend one sided?

MidwichCuckoo · 15/06/2022 09:18

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 15/06/2022 09:08

Maybe RTFT. That has been linked 3 times now.

Wow. Maybe chill out 😀Are you OK?

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 15/06/2022 09:38

MidwichCuckoo · 15/06/2022 09:18

Wow. Maybe chill out 😀Are you OK?

Perfectly fine.

ZeroFuchsGiven · 15/06/2022 10:12

Children will only be removed from their parent as a very last resort.

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:38

And is that programme completely unbiased? Does it talk to all parties or is it just like OPs friend one sided?

Well it shows the teens being forcibly removed to go to their fathers from their beds at midnight, and them saying they don't want to go. It also speaks to those specific teens about why they didn't want to see their dad and how they felt about being forced. They kept trying to run away. The teen girl started self-harming. An order was made that if the teens ran away and made it back to their mother's house, the mother would be arrested. The teen boy was writing letters to the judge telling them how unhappy he was with his dad and how he was always bashing their mum to them when they were there.

It speaks to a mother who is dealing with a father who actually has a conviction for sexual offences against minors, and this peadophile has been able to force her to go to court 37 times bringing allegations against her that she is keeping the kids from him, alienating him, and emotionally abusing him, because that was the only way he could have power over them anymore.

It speaks to many professionals such as lawyers about the issues with "parental alienation" allegations in general, and looks at whether there is any evidence that these types of forced removals to live with the NRP are even successful, or if they cause more harm than good. That the studies on this are substandard and there's no robust evidence for the effectiveness of these interventions at all. A lot of the so-called "experts" drawn on in these cases aren't accredited/regulated by any professional body. Speaks to an ex judge.

It speaks to another man who is 24 and he details how he was removed 3 times to live with his father by force in his early teens. He said it left him deeply traumatised and dehumanised. The initial removal when he was 14 was recorded and it is shown. He did not want to go. He tried to jump from a balcony.

The impact on the mental health of these children that these removals have can be absolutely devastating to them and they feel their voices and wishes go unheard and/or dismissed.

It speaks to barristers who have been in the family courts. One recounts a case where a mother thought her children would be at risk having unsupervised contact with their father, who has abused and raped her, and the judge was "scathing" and dismissive, he shouted at her, and threatened that if she carried on with her case "against the fathe, then "he would make sure" her child would be put into care and even adopted. It names the judge.
It also names another judge who told a woman in the family courts that she "couldn't have possibly been raped" and she was "no shrinking violet" and had had consensual sexual relationship before (the idea that consent is always given in a marriage). That her partner didn't really mean any harm when he put a plastic bag over her head, it was "in jest".

Professionals who have been in this system have stated that the family court is highly conservative and out of step with societal understandings of abuse, rape, coercive control etc.

It talks about how the Ministry of Justice report castigated the family justice system for its treatment of DV survivors.

Also how compulsory domestic abuse training for family court judges was added to the domestic abuse bill by house of lords, but then removed by the gov as felt it "undermined judicial independence".

Unless your ex partner has been cautioned by the police for abuse or has a conviction, many struggle to access any legal aid. Average cost of proceedings in 13k, and with COVID these are lasting 18 months on average, 1/10 over 5 years. So many parents are spending thousands, some hundreds of thousands, to protect their children, especially when they end up in court over these disputes multiple times. ... Such as the woman who had to go to court 37 times over 8 years to protect her kids from a father who had a conviction for sexual offences against children! She has been diagnosed with PTSD as a result of these 8 years.
Thankfully, this diagnosis has meant that a judge can now veto whether her peadophile ex can take her to court again... But only for 3 years.

Speaks to a victim commissioner who has had clients state that if they knew what they would go through in the family courts, they would have stayed in the abusive relationship rather than go through this. How it feels like the courts collude with the perpetrator to continue abuse... But at least they had learned how to deal with their DV, so that was preferable.

There is a lot more to it than what I've tried to briefly summarise as the Despatches is about 50 mins long.

But i do recommend it. There are clearly some serious issues with the family courts and how they can be weaponised.

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:39

Children will only be removed from their parent as a very last resort.

A last resort that can often cause significant harm (funny that) to the children involved, who were happy living where they were.

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 15/06/2022 19:41

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:39

Children will only be removed from their parent as a very last resort.

A last resort that can often cause significant harm (funny that) to the children involved, who were happy living where they were.

You have no way of knowing if they were in danger or not. Nor has OP.

None of us have the details of this case.

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:45

None of us have the details of this case.

I'm speaking generally, not about this specific case. E.g. the teens who were removed in the Despatches to live with a father they did not want to live with. Who actually end up back at home with mum anyway, but only after suffering trauma due to the removal, in their own words.

Anxiernie · 15/06/2022 20:08

Fortunately, I have never been removed to live with a parent I didn't want to live with. However, I have been through forced contact.

My guardians had to follow the court order than meant I spent EOW with my mother.

I have vivid, traumatic memories of being dragged, kicking, screaming, crying from the car, clinging on to the back of the seats, not wanting to go, but being forced.

Funnily enough, I am NC with her now. She didn't say "oh, take her home, it's fine, she doesn't want to see me". Oh no. Of course not, because her selfish want to see me fame before my own emotional health and wishes.

I have also seen the Despatches.

It is admitted that basically the children don't have to be in immediate danger to be removed like this, the mother doesn't have to be using drugs or whatever.

It is done because they feel like if they place the children with the NRP then this will improve the relationship and end the "alienation" away from the supposed "alienator". So they can do this in an attempt to essentially force a relationship between the child and the NRP. Often it is because the children are refusing to go to the NRP and the NRP claims alienation. If the children are refusing contact, they can force them to live with them in an attempt to salvage the relationship.

NotKevinTurvey · 15/06/2022 20:13

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:39

Children will only be removed from their parent as a very last resort.

A last resort that can often cause significant harm (funny that) to the children involved, who were happy living where they were.

And in many other cases it will remove them from a home where their well-being is severely compromised and move them to a home where it isn’t.

Focussing on the few cases where the wrong decision is made isn’t an argument against the process being used in general.

NotKevinTurvey · 15/06/2022 20:15

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 19:45

None of us have the details of this case.

I'm speaking generally, not about this specific case. E.g. the teens who were removed in the Despatches to live with a father they did not want to live with. Who actually end up back at home with mum anyway, but only after suffering trauma due to the removal, in their own words.

You seem to be coming at this with a very strong bias that the mother must be in the right.

There’s absolutely no reason to assume that this is the case here, or in general.

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 20:18

You seem to be coming at this with a very strong bias that the mother must be in the right.

Not at all. It's about those who don't believe that forced removal to a NRP could ever happen wrongly, there must be more to it etc. When it does. Perhaps not in this case, but it does happen.

Owlilac · 15/06/2022 20:23

where their well-being is severely compromised

Sometimes this "well-being" is the idea that they have been alienated.

I am not saying this always happens, but there are significant issues with the parental alienation claim in general. How do you know if a child has been alienated or if they simply do not like their other parent or enjoy spending time with them, for valid reasons? Of course this allegation can be abused. Note can be. If you do watch the Despatches you'll see that professionals recognise issues with the family courts, but some on here seem to come with a strong bias that the court must always be right.

Wiiiiiiilllllsssssonnnnnn · 15/06/2022 20:25

You probably don’t even know half of what’s gone on. You’re only hearing things from your friend’s perspective obviously. Courts don’t make these decisions for no reason.

PreschoolMum4 · 15/06/2022 20:32

There’s more to it but the family court is definitely flawed and does not protect children from abusive parents the way it should. I have first hand experience unfortunately. A lot of my concerns have been dismissed. My ex has made all sorts of malicious lies and complaints through SS, Cafcass etc. Thankfully I’ve been able to prove otherwise but this is not always the case for some.
The Cafcass system has its flaws too. They argue that the children can speak freely in a neural environment however the representatives are effectively strangers and so the reports can be inaccurate.

mathanxiety · 16/06/2022 02:06

Children will only be removed from a parent as a very last resort

Not so.

This is not a case referred to Social Services. It is not a neglect or abuse case.

It's a case of a divorced father making an allegation of alienation against the mother, with who. The children resided, probably with visitation rights for the father.

I spent nine years fighting allegations of alienation brought by my abusive exH. Nine years of answering motions to show cause why I shouldn't be held in contempt of court, and when exH finally physically abused one of the DCs during his visitation time and they told me about it, I phoned the police, followed by yet another motion to show cause and also a motion for an order of protection against me.

If I hadn't been able to get to court to fight tooth and nail, an order would have been entered against me in absentia and the kids would have been taken to live with exH.

Those of you who can't believe this sort of shit happens in family court should count yourselves lucky.

mathanxiety · 16/06/2022 02:12

@CloseYoueEyesAndSee - no, this is not what is happening here. It's not an abuse/ neglect case.

This is a case of a man getting revenge on his ex wife and her parents via the family courts.

An accusation of alienation is the nuclear option and sadly many judges fall for it.

You don't need evidence in order to make the accusation. You just need to be very, very angry, and able to look reasonable and do a good sadface in court.

mathanxiety · 16/06/2022 02:29

@VikingVolva, each time a motion for contempt of court was presented to the judge it took over a year to dispose of in my case (with no order issued ever apart from an order to do family therapy, and one of my DDs had to endure 'reunjfication therapy' with exH for two long, painful years).

All the allegations of alienation we're a case of he said/ she said, and unless there was a trial, with the DCs sworn in and testifying, the judge had only allegations and my denials to go on. If I hadn't been a ke to answer any of the motions, if I had failed to get my answers lodged with the court in time, if I had failed to observe the correct form for my answers, if I had been late to a hearing or missed one, I would have been sunk.

It is very possible that the hearings have been dragging on for a year in the OP's friend's case. If a guardian ad litem was appointed that would have required a motion, maybe multiple hearings, maybe delays because one of other of the couple couldn't make it to court, couldn't get answers to motions lodged with the court. Maybe there were delays by the Gal or rescheduling of hearings by the judge because he had holidays booked, etc.

A motion to change a previous order would require multiple hearings, a report by the guardian ad litem, and a lot of back and forth in status hearings.

A case going on for years would not be unheard of. It doesn't mean the mother had instructions from the judge. It means the judge wanted the parents to sort out their problems themselves and was waiting to rubber stamp whatever solution they came up with - 50-50 or some other arrangement. Somehow or other the mother managed to look as if she wasn't going to compromise and the judge decided to end it then and there.

If you think this can't happen, think again. The judge wields godlike power in family court.

PaddingtonBearStareAgain · 16/06/2022 07:12

This is a case of a man getting revenge on his ex wife and her parents via the family courts

You have absolutely no idea if this is the case here or not. None at all (unless you are OPs friend and have access to all court papers for this particular case)

PinkButtercups · 16/06/2022 07:20

Similar things happened to my DN's.

Are CAFCAS involved? I think that's what they are called. They took my DN's very seriously and made sure their voices were heard. They have a very toxic DM. She thought because she was a woman she'd get the kids. Her lies were soon seen and she didn't get custody at all.

rwalker · 16/06/2022 07:20

SIL work in SS removing children many times she been in tears many of how unbelievable difficult it is to remove children she feels are at risk the process is massive .
Sorry but no kids removed for bad mouthing .
And even though we are supposed to of moved and dads treat equal , for a dad to get custody of kids is not the norm and very difficult .