Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

I was very serious with my working mothers comment

There is widespread disrespect for authority and authorative figures.

My parents always told us that when we were at school, we had to do behave, listen to the teacher and do as we were told. Now, if teachers have the temerity to ask a child to behave, they have to contend with irate parents who think that teachers have no right to administer discipline to their off-spring.

This has got nothing to do with being PC or anti PC. A lot of these kids know all about their rights but nothing about responsibility and accountability. I have two male friends from university who went on to become chemistry teachers. Both left after 2 years. The first one taught at a highly selective girls school in a wealthy neighbourhood. The reason he gave up on teaching was because he could no longer tolerate bullying parents who would not accept that their darling daughters were not as clever as they believed and he received a lot of abuse.

My other friend taught at a well regarded comprehensive school and the kids told him to his face that he could do nothing to them as they knew their rights.

If parents do not respect the teachers, it is not surprising that children do not. Unfortunately for these kids, when they start work, they will not be able to go running to Mummy or Daddy when they are chastised by their boss. They are in for a rude awakening.

Message withdrawn

Speedymama - they'll just kill the boss!

Sorry, that was a joke. But perhaps it's not, perhaps it's a prediction.

Agree with your posts anniemac - also zippi's comment aout there being a childhood industry

anniemac - I totally disagree with your comment about 15 year olds being let off for crimes. They are not legally adults, so no they shouldn't be treated in the same way as Adults. Where would you draw the line, 14, 13, 12?
That is not to say I think just patting them on the back until they are 18 is the answer either btw
Also I am going to go out on a limb here, but I would venture that the vast majority of young offenders would come from an environment where Attachment parenting is not exactly in vogue

Overrun..if a 15 yr old rapes someone do you think they shouldn't be treated as an adult?

Yes I think they should be treated differently, by that I don't mean that they shouldn't be punished. But I wouldn't call for them to subject to the Adult legal system.
The same applies to Murder by the way, before you ask

There is a huge difference in how you parent a toddler and how you parent a 15 year old. If a 15 year old is a spoilt, rude, bad mouth, brat, I quite simply blame the parents. If a 3 year old hits my 3 year old son, I don't blame the parents.

I don't know what you mean by MODERN techniques. Were the old fashioned ones any better at producing non-brats ?

Today I had the pleasure of meeting a 11 or 12 year old boy in a restaurant who was so polite I nearly died of shock. They seem so rare these days.

I tihnk something must have been better Yellowrose - on the evidence of your own comment re the rarity of polite teenagers nowadays.

I don't have anough experience yet - my ds is only 6 and I am yet to expereince the joys of the teenage years - but a gut feel would suggest to me that an absence of defining boundaries, combined with a lack of understadning that with rights go responsibilites (and for that I blame both the media and the politicans) and lack of understanding that you need to work (not as in paid work - although that is part of it) to get anything worthwhile have all contributed to this "generation of brats" (which I realise is far too much of a generalisation).

A lot of that reposnibility does rest with modern parenting, although it is with modern parenting techniques I am not sure.

I think that that there has been some research in Amercia to suggest that some of the "brattishness" is as a result of children always being told that they are marvellous, and what a good job they've done (ie concetrating on the positive and never mentioning the negative) and therefore not realising that they have to work at being marvellous - or to achieve whatever they want to achieve. It was something I read in passing though - not sure I can remember enough even to google it.

prettybird - I agree about parents having to work, esp. once kids are in school, but how does this contribute to bad child behaviour ? As a parent I see it as my prime responsibility to teach good manners, not his teachers or anyone else. So when he isn't in school he will be taught good manners at home and if he picks up bad habits at school, again it is my responsibility to sort it out. I learned to swear at school, not at home. I would never ever dare swear in front of my parents though. It was forbidden in our home.

No guarantee that your kids will be the best behaved in the world, but at least one can try.

So are modern parents allowing their kids to swear and be generally anti-social brats by being TOO NICE to them ? Doesn't negativity and telling kids off and putting them down all the time do more harm ? All my friends who told me they had parents they resented were the ones who said they had very negative parents who never encouraged them or praised them about anything. It is bloody demoralising to be honest. Imagine a boss who never praises you for anything.

Sorry - I wasn't meaning parents having to wrok, i was meaning that the children have to work to achieve anything.

And I am not meaning that children should be brought up in a culure of negativtiy - I was just meaning that it may be that some people have got the balance wrong - only ever praising and not ever saying "you need to try harder at this". If you're not ever told what's wrong, how do you know you need to fix it?

If a chold doesn't know it is worng to swear, why would they stop (OK, I do know that they usually know that swearing is worng - but you get my drift)

I actually beleive passionately in the power of positive thinking - and think it is a fantastic thing to teach children. But it also requires effort on their aprt - they do need to work to achive thier goals! They can't just visualise them

Anniemac As far as I understand the legal system they are, and that is what was being discussed. I agree that some 15 year olds can be very mature and accountable for their actionss. But this varies from individual to individual which is why there is a blanket rule for all. When would you propose a person should be treated like an Adult for the purpose of legal issues?
Don't confuse physical size and boys being lippy with an ability to think through every facet of their decisions.
I have worked with teenagers for a long time and also been a visitor in many a Youth prison. Pretty awful places, but at least they are not subject to the the kind of things that go on in an Adult prison.
Have either of you been involved in the legal system or seen the inside of a prison?
As a seperate aside, you see your 16 son as an Adult, how strange most people would think of some one of that age as the teenager they are, however mature they seem. Lastly, so how would you feel if your son took up a relationship with a 30 year old, how mature would you think him then?

I agree with squeakybub way down thread (or I supose up thread if you flip it). I thought modern parenting techniques were star charts, naughty steps and pasta jars.

I don't think giving a child everything they ask for or letting them have as many DVD's, gameboys etc as they want is a technique, its neglect.

I may not be that observant, but I haven't noticed the streets being awash with parents quietly explaining good behaviour to their children - occassionally screaming at them yes, explaining, no.

oh prettybird - I agree. I think I misunderstood your previous post. They do need to be told they have to WORK at it. The worst brats are the ones (and this a pet hate on mine !!) get their parents to do their dirty laundry for them when they are 22 and at uni. !! Parenting that is too extreme (too nice or too nasty) really isn't very helpful

"I may not be that observant, but I haven't noticed the streets being awash with parents quietly explaining good behaviour to their children - occassionally screaming at them yes, explaining, no".

Oh MadamP - you are SO right. Lots of shouting and very little explaining.

Greenleeves seems to have encapsulated the problem, further down the thread.

This is so much bigger than liberal parenting. (Also agree that the 'worst' or most violent/self-destructive examples of bratdom atm seem not to come from the kind of families which would use such parenting methods- particularly not the explaining- these seem in my limited experience to be kids who have been ignored because of parental stress or simple incapacity to deal with them).

Kids are growing up in an increasingly horrible western world imho. Everyone is actively encouraged to focus on wealth and status fantasies. Did you see that ghastly Observer Women thing a couple of weeks ago about the new 'alpha females'? there is no sense of community anymore; if you are not a star or a wealthcreator, you are a dull failure.

Then, there's the economic overheating that means they live in increasingly cramped and unpleasant surroundings and often don't have much hope of leaving home until they're 29 at least.

Parents are anxious about all this; so baby has to be perfect, a star, and the world has to recognise it too.

A woman at ds's football club the other day threw a strop in front of her totally unconcerned ds (age 3) because the whole team were not awarded a star due to general bad behaviour. Her child clearly had a RIGHT to that star, so she was having it. Everyone is an individual now, even 3 yos. Its so sad.

Primary schools in Hampshire have been teaching children about the UN declaration on the rights of the child. Has been working very well, apparently, because the children realise that not only do they have rights, they have responsibilities and have to respect the rights of other people, too. It is said that it has led to a reduction in bullying and an improvement in behaviour. Think it's a very interesting approach - the diredctor of education told me it makes a huge difference when they realise all the grown ups in the world have signed up to the charter. But apparently all the good work is lost within two terms if they switch to a secondary school that doesn't embrace the charter... i.e. allows shouting and so on.

Isn't it just that our generation think that we know everything and are unable/unwilling to take advice from those who have been there, done it and bought the T-shirt? How many threads are there on MN about "interfering ILs/hideous parents/ignorant HVs" where if you get down to the nitty gritty, the elders are simply not agreeing with the poster?

Our parents generation had/have a lot of faults but I think they were way more consistent in their parenting than we are. I also think that they were better at being "parents" than we are - we're too hung up on our kids liking us and being our friends to say "no" to them and make unpopular decisions where they're really necessary.

so is this basically a "youth of today don't know they're birn, twern't like that when I were a nipper our father would kill us dead and dance on our graves after 25 hour down't pit" type thread?

reeeeeet than...

Well of course its a generalisation

but I don't think its that one .. I think rather it goes something like: "parents of today they worry about everything too much and treat their children like mini-adults. They learn everything from books and put much store by non-robust research whilst condemning anecdotal evidence from previous generations. There is a tendency to spoil offspring due and make their entire lives a negotiation"

and it is worthy of discussion IMO