Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

mb - you are beginning to sound like DC - READ MY POSTS (LIPS) he keeps saying, I am not generally blind nor deaf !

To be strictly accurate, she didn't give a cut off at 6 either. What she said was that if she has booked a baby sitter she didn't like to see other peopes childre charging round.

She then said that her children ate before 6. Not quite the same as giving a diktat that 'All children must be in bed by 6.00!'

I actually think that most people on the thread generally agree. Chilren should learn how to cope in scoial circumstances by being expeosed to them. Chilren (along with everone else) shouldn't be allowed to make other people miserable by their behaviour.

My only concern is that some british parents see 'lets be like the continentals' as equating to 'lets let the kids run round till 10.00, while we chill out' which isn't how continentals run things. Their kids are expected to behave. And FWIW continental resturants do not pander to the concept that chilren must be entertained at all times. You don't see too many games and free crayons available is the average bistro in France. The children eat out as part of normal family like and are not, in general, pandered to.

I don't have a problem with kids eating later if they behave well. I do get pissed off if a formal setting is turned into a play group. It is innapropriate.

I got an email which may or may not have been from you, it didn't say Psycho anywhere on it

I think most of us are arriving at pretty much the same common sense position, albeit coming from totally different directions

Haven't read all the posts but thought I'd throw in that I'm really scary when cross so disobedience is not an option. One look from mummy dearest & dc reduced to quivering jellies!

the whole concept of eating on the continent [sic] is totally different ....people shop daily for fresh food, cooking is more important and all meals are longer..probably because their tv is rubbish

but chidlren are used to spedning time over a meal which is not just a means to an end but an end in itself

Yes, and it is interesting that , ime, continental families do not go out with lots of toys etc to keep the kids entertained either. The kids are just expected to behave, like the adults. No crappy kids menus, but no kiddie 'extras' either. The meal , and converstation are considered to be the entertainment.

Interesting.

Mine are 7 and 10 and are fairly reliable in most circumstances. We gradually built them up over the years. they are good for a few hours now! Luxury

I love this continental and on the continent bit..it is very retro cinema newsreel

I don't think they have as many toys ever

'Fog in Channel, Continent cut off!'

I want alan whicker to pop up

'You don't see too many games and free crayons available' again true, but I remember us kids playing with the salt and pepper, toothpicks, napkin and pieces of bread. we were well behaved (for what I've been told 0 and my dad is a bit military in his approach to say the least!) but the table must have looked a mess. after being a waitress myself I think that a few crayons do not hurt anyone. or we used to go and play outside, which of course was posible due to the location of chosen restaurants.

as per kids menu I welcome it if it means a more simple and small version of the adult food. if many places in the continent do not have it is maybe because restaurants are quite versatile in cooking something simple that is not on the menu. in here you find that sometimes you cannot even swap the mash for the roast potatoes.

is he still alive?

a permissive parent is different from what F&Z is talking about. twig, it is a different concept - totally.

if from very very young, you have a non-confrontational approach to a child, they do not learn how to confront so they don't end up tantrumming in public.

i can't go into the detail i want to at the moment. but i teach a lot of 11 -16 boys in the middle and lower ability levels.

i find that trust, which someone else mentioned below is the key to it. i don't get lots of kids kicking off or just not doing the work because i find they trust me. it takes time when they meet you at first but after a couple months, they do it.

i am not saying that your kids don't trust you. it is a different kind of trust that i can't lay my fingers on a neat explanation yet. i think part of it is that htey know that as long they are truthful with me, we have a common ground and i praise their truthfulness and work around getting over their misbehaviour without berating them.

of course, you can't reason with toddlers. they understand by modelling behaviour. when my dd kicks off, i may not know how to deal with it but by reflecting on it, i can usually find a reason where i could have done something differently to deflect it happenning.

i think of teaching and childrearing a bit like karate. you are taught to move just enough to make your opponent's blow ineffective. but to remain in a position where you can counter - note - not give ground. because if you stood your ground to take the whole blow of your opponent, well it would take too much out of you.

mb - I appreciate you said SOME British parents, so will assume you weren't talking about me ?

Both my parents were incredibly tactile with us, lots of hugging and kissing, took us out on lots of lunch/dinner outings and holidays. It made for a very very happy childhood. I had a child-centred upbringing, it was a very good one. I was also considered a very well-behaved, motivated child and teenager. It made me very self-confident and proud to achieve, because I was praised, not humiliated and shamed. Oh and my mum was a stay at home mum, we never had nannies or babysitters, despite dad being able to afford it

I am copying my parents in my parenting in many respects, not some so called continental model, whatever that is

I may produce a spoilt brat (just like myself you may suggest !!!!) but hey if he is happy, confident, an achiever, polite to old ladies, a teenager I can reason with, reads lots of books, able to think independently rather than like a sheep, both about society and politics, etc, what do I care if some will put him in the brat category ?

I just don't ever wish to produce a "sheep", that would be my number one failing as a parent.

add to the 2nd paragraph - and it is not about negotiating with a child either. that is stupid. my link to the continuum concept far below explains about permissive and negotiating in western childrearing and how alien it is to the way children were raised for the 90% of existence of humanity.

I don't agree with kiskidee that a tantrum or what looks like a tantrum in public is necessarily related to upbringing..sometimes they are "beside themselves" and out of reach temporarily

kk - that is a very interesting post

I think the problem with truly 'permissive' parenting (and I am not taliking here about positive parenting, but the 'give in at all costs' style of non parenting) is that it raises children who think that only their viewopoints are valid, that only their needs are important, and devil take the rest. So, yo get children who play loud music at breakfast in hotels Because what they want outweighs the needs of the other 20 odd people in the room.

I'm seeing increasing numbers of sudents who are, at the age of 11, incapable of sharing, taking turns, or waiting to be dealt with. They are really quite shocked whenI tell them not to interupt a converstation I am having with another child, for example. they throw mini strops if they are made to wait. Rather worrying.

i didn't say tantrumming is linked directly upbringing though i am sure that some of it is linked to upbringing and some is not.

I really do object strongly to the style of parenting that I am talking about being referred to as permissive or weak

it is rude, incorrect, and just plain lazy to describe it in that way

can you stop it please Twig. I am not calling your style "dictatorial" or "overbearing".

I am not sure what is meant by "positive parenting" either, so please don't lump me in with that. Is it the one where you just praise all the time and ignore bad behaviour? That is not my style.

Frankly I'm not concerned what they do around the world regarding child rearing. Just because they do it differently doesn't make it better.

Lots of things are done differently around the world and some of the stuff is definitely not better.

But some things are better and I think it is always relevant to look and see how others go about things.

sounds like it is pointless to stop and try to listen to opinions then Nadine. maybe you can just ignore the posts you don't want to 'listen' to? as expressing that opinion is pretty pointless.

oh but nadine - many of us in the UK ARE doing something wrong, if the research (UN) says that we have some of the unhappiest children in the world ?

we came bottom of the list in the most developed countries category, together with the Americans I think. How can you ignore this, on top of research that shows we have the worst behaved teenagers and underachievers at school ?

I think it is very blinkered to suggest that what we do here is better. It just isn't, because in many instances, it just ain't working.