Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

"Ive met a lot of parents who seem to deserve the children theyve got."

trouble is we have to put up with 'em too

lol nadine- agree!

problem is, so do we

nadine lol

yeah, and Im expected to tell them "Oh yes, your child is throwing himself around like that and generally being a PITA because he has poor self esteem due to dyspraxia.

Hello!

Ive got some tests that will tell us the truth, so there!"

Deffo agree that its different in Europe - I love taking DD to France, everything seems more child friendly, yet the general behaviour seems so much better!

Counting the grey hairs -
Your scociety - is, as you so aptly decribed it - 'child FOCUSED' - and what a beautiful and idyllic place it sounds - I would like to live there.

My idea of Child CENTRED is slightly different, and not what you are describing.
And to me, that place is not the idyllic that we as a nation should be aiming for.

Greyhairs, when I quoted Custy I think that was from a thread about the UNICEF report into Britain's unhappy children, and that was entirely the spirit of the thread.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about the UK being not very family-friendly - it most definitely is not. However, the key word is family and as a family we have collective responsibility for raising well-adjusted, happy and well-behaved children. So many people wash their hands of their children, or miguidedly believe that the key to parenting is to give them all they want. I have the problem with DH because he had a deprived childhood, in both the material and emotional sense, whereas I enjoyed a disciplined but loving home. My family had money, but my Dad would have never dreamed of giving us all we wanted in the material sense. My friends all had trendier clothes, newer bikes, TVs in the bedroom but I never envied them that. I had other things and we travelled alot, which I felt very privileged to do. However, DH and I clash constantly over parenting - he is much more of the 'give them what I didn't have' variety, whereas I can see the benefits of my own happy but disciplined childhood.

I am going to refer to the Wise One again, and ask that you scroll down to her (long) post which is bursting with common sense. We need a balance here. You don't have to be unloving to be disciplined, or vice versa. And I think the backlash against children in British society can, in some part, be attributed to the bad behaviour of so many children whose parents will not accept responsibility for bringing them up to respect others or, for that matter, respect anything that doesn't have a covetable label attached to it.

fab post custy

Custy's post = balance.
How can anyone argue against her view when it is commonsense and balanced.

I have just been reading back through this thread, and would like to correct something Speedymama said.

Apparently, once these children 'grow up' they still can continue to run to mummy and daddy to sort out their work problems, as my DH will testify. He has a 'boy' of 20 working for him who can't lay off the drink. He is frequently late and often turns in still drunk. His job is to ride racehorses and he has been given an apprentice jockey's licence, but the high level of responsibility and scope for disaster if not totally 'compos mentis' have gone way over his head. DH has had heated words with him over his conduct, but did he accept responsibility and hang his head? Did he heck. He phoned his Dad, who then rang my DH to have a go. It just goes on and on.

Yes, I actually agree with you GOHorsewoman and with Custy's post (although missed the Unicef thread sadly - will look for it). I think we are on common ground here, there is a balance to be struck.... I too had very few material possessions as a child and as it happens, I also have a prob. with my dh who I think is too lenient at times. All I was trying to say was I think that cultural 'norms' do have a huge influence (and I'm talking about peer pressure on adults here not just children!). Take, for example, all that pressure around buying the latest fashionable clothes or pink piece of plastic. If you are living in a society that doesn't place a huge value on that sort of thing then it makes the parents' job that much easier.

Oblomov ... intrigued by your post ... don't quite understand it though (probably being thick - sorry!) - can you explain further pls?

Twiglett, you are not the only one. I asked my DH the very same question last week.

Because last week my dds and I enjoyed the following experiences:

Dd2 (16mths) was hit repeatedly on the face by a three year old.

Dd2 was bitten twice by a three year old.

Dds and I were subject to a rather unpleasant afternoon in the company of a whingeing little tyke who repeaedly threw tantrums as well as metal toys (at us).

I couldn't get out of any of those places quick enough tbh. And no, I am not an ambulance chaser I just don't particularly like aggressive behaviour (esp towards a baby) that either goes 'unnoticed' or is dealt with in the form of some poncey soft negotiation.

My dds push the boundaries all the time. If dd1 behaved like the children mentioned above I would be mortified and she would be sent straight up to her room after a v vocal telling-off. I'm not strict with dd2 (yet) but she knows what the word 'no' means.

Dd1 is often complimented on her gentle politeness. I know I sound smug and I'm also aware this may change but I do believe that a lot of this is because she has been given firm guidelines from the start as to what is acceptable - she has always been praised for good behaviour and cuddled and kissed in ridiculous amounts!

I heard recently of a 4yo bullying a 2yo, the 2yo's mother stopped the 4yo and told him to leave her daughter alone. The 4yo's mother (the two women were 'friends', one round having coffee with other) and told her NOT to speak to her son like that, and proceeded to give her a lecture while ignoring her son's behaviour completely! Don't think they're friends anymore....

Also read a parenting book once that suggested you never talk on the phone or have a friend round while your children are at home and awake, in order to show them how important they are to you. How on earth does a child then a) learn what healthy adult interaction is and b) learn that they are not the centre of the universe??

bleurgh at book advice

I bet people follow it too

It really doesn't help that people like me who don't like shouting, smacking, naughty steps, punishing or rewarding with chocolates and gifts as a method of parenting are called do gooder hippies.

There ARE extremes of parenting. I got so pissed off with my breastfeeding group (I won't say which org. as I don't wish to be insulting to the org.) sort of woman that I stopped going to their meetings as most of them seemed to think it was ok for their child to bully and push mine. They talked about attachment parenting, but didn't actually think it was important for their child to be nice to mine. If the child wasn't nice, he/she wasn't told he must stop. Quite shocking really ! They weren't actually very physical with their children either which surprised me i.e. hugging, kissing, just for the heck of it because it feels good !

Balance is important. I practice a form of attachmnet parenting, but I don't spoil my son or allow him to run rampage through someone's house and hit their kids. Thankfully he is very non-aggressive, it isn't in his personality, but if he were I would modify my methods. Talking and reasoning with him even at age 2.9 works with him. He gets hugs and kisses when he does what mummy asks, not chocolate buttons or stars. It works with him.

You have to apply a method that works for a particular child. If your method ain't working, then you have to modify it. It is common sesne really, isn't it ?

So yellow rose. Hugs and kisses are what you give as a reward, but what do you do if he doesn't do as you ask? Withhold the hugs and kisses, or some form of punishment.
Am not taking the piss or anything, I simply want to know. My dd1 was very pliable also until just before she was 3. Now she is a nightmare. I reward her with things she likes ie, time on the computer (which I do feel is an important skill to learn in this day and age), and tv time. She gains time for good bhvr, and loses time for bad.
Her tantrums, usually when told no, don't last long, and afterwards she can be talked to. If I can stay calm during it. But she is impossible sometimes, and I get very cross

interesting- the one big issue I do have with liberal parenting is the idea that aggressive behaviour from children which hurts or otherwise affects others should be met with hushed negotiation or ignored.

It's understandable not to want to shout at or scare children but I just don't get it when parents I know allow their child to hit, snatch, etc, and meet it with gentle 'negotiation', a concept which seems to mean very little to a 2-4 yo. From observation of these kids, they tend to remain more prone to acting aggressively with others- why would they not, when they are basically not discouraged from doing so?

A woman I am otherwise very close to (a nursery teacher btw) is like this; she believes shouting to be the very worst thing you can possibly do to a child and visibly flinches when I raise my voice at my ds (I don't justify my occasional shouting at him, but I do a fair bit of 'warning' tone at him, and will tell him 'that was naughty' etc- which she never does) She has told me that it is a truly terrible thing even to say 'you have been a good boy today' because that is labelling the child and imposing your view of them.

Maybe I am an 'abusive' mother, but I'm always told how polite and kind to others ds is (though he remains a big handful generally)- perhaps he has developed a 'false self' and will suffer horribly from mental distress when older due to my callous treatment of him- but I can't believe that the hysterically precious treatment of children can help them to grow up and operate in a highly unpleasant world.

I dont know that you can make a decision on parenting style and stick with it until you know what your childs personality is going to be like!

Theres a child in DDs class who is always quiet and well behaved, and DD says she never gets told off.

DD meanwhile argues the point about everything. My fault perhaps, but if I see her doing something antisocial or upsetting to someone else, I will make sure she stops!

I sometimes dispair that I will ever get it right, and wonder if Im just rearing another spoilt brat for the future. But Im bloody well trying not to.

Oh, and bleeuurgh to parenting book too!

come on we all knew obnoxious, spoilt kids when we were kids

its just that we are all very aware of parenting now, and we have a forum to discuss it

isn't this just a case of 'it wasn't like that in my day'

Hello evryone, back again.
I have had a very interesting conversation this afternoon with dh.

After I finished work at lunchtime, We went to the gym together, swam together and went in the steam room, sauna and jacuzzi together - it was lovely.

I was telling him about this thread.
Saying that I had seen my mum the day before:- please see my earler post -

"And I come from a different generation ( being 34!!!!!!) and from a family, that was totally loved, but with strong guidelines of what was acceptable, was smacked only twice, because I only NEEDED to be smacked twice. Because I loved, but respected my mum and without actually saying anyway, she and my dad, had already set the guidelines of what kind of behaviour was acceptable.

I am trying to re-create that same atmosphere in our home. And I admitted to my mum , yesterday, that I am not really achieving this. But it is what I am aiming for. "

I am trying to recreate my mums way of bring us up.
But I am failing.
And I don't know how to re-correct it.

I do believe that ds (3.2) is really ( yes I know you have heard this all before - and that every mother thinks it!!!), but I do believe that he is quite a sweet natured boy.
We is very cuddly and we are all, (dh , ds, my mum etc etc) very physically affectionate.

he shares nicely.
he can be ever so sweet.
He is mostly very sweet to other children and has never ever thrown anything, hit, bitten, or done anything nasty to any other child.
he has never had a tantrum.

But he can also be a total pain.
such a brat.
whiney.
not talking properly.
says no , no - in an aggressive manner to dh and I.
won't do as he is told.

he has ruined, just by being a pain, dinners out at harvesters(child friendly) restaurants and days out, when we go to places that cater for children.

We are strict.
We do say no.
We say that this is not acceptable.
we have smacked him, I would say 5 times all-in-all.
taken away tv priveledges and used the abhorent 'naughty step.

None of this seems to have created the child we want.
I mean some hours, or even days, he can be so sweet .
Other times for an hour, a whole day, or what seems like weeks, he is actually nigh on unpleasant.
And this feels like such a 'battle' we are doing these things (saying no, explaining things, naughty step all the time)

You can't use a threat of a smack too often, because it becomes meaningless, besides where are you supposed to go , threat wise, from a smack !!!!!

Yesterday, when I went to my mums ( to sort out her will) ds was with dh.
dh said he was a pain, all day.
whiney.
e.g. dh had phsio coming.
explained to ds that this was very important, expected him to be good.
offered him tv or colouring.
when Tony arrived, ds was whiney, in and out of the table.
Dh was embarrassed.

So, when I was little I wouldn't have ever dreamed of.... 'answering back'.
when my mums friends came round , I sat colouring, playing with my dolls. had a chat witht them. was a diamond.

I am going to ask my mother what she did, how she did it, where I am going wrong.

Sorry for this very long post.

But I also wanted to ask that same question to you guys and get your responses.

Message withdrawn

Banof Mothers - I honestly don't know. Ds is my only child, so I am new to all this. He used to have terrible tantrums (in shops and in public mostly) up to a few months ago, but seems to have calmed down quite a lot as he approaches 3. Dh and I have totally lost the plot at times, but just had this thing right from the minute he was born that we must never smack or punish a small child. With an older child who communicates well (ds is bilingual, so not fluent in any language yet !) I am hoping I can talk and reason, but may be I am too naive ?

I am waiting for the next phase ! Distraction worked well when he had the tantrums, I don't know how to deal with it in an older child. I might have to buy one of those child guru books or come back to MN to find out what to do with a 5 year old who throws tantrums

I had a friend who totally ignored her 5 year old, let him climb the walls of my house and nearly broke dh's watch because his mummy let him have it . He was also very unsociable, never smiled, never said hello or tried to intract with anyone. She would come to our house (I didn't have ds then), bring no toys or books or anything to entertain him and he would just get bored stiff until I offered him something to play with. I had to distarct him to get the watch off him by offering him a toy instead.

I just found the poor child was so ignored he behaved badly to get mummy's attention. I just don't want ds to be like that. I don't want him to be spoilt by too much attention, but not totally ignored either, does that make sense ?

oblomov - I don't think toddlers that age can sit still in restaurants. Ds is nearly always rubbish in restaurants (he is 2.9 yo), starts climbing all over the place because he gets bored. I don't see it as a real problem at his age. He is just super active and finds sitting at the table boring.

Hi oblomov just logged on so not read all the threads but yours has inspired me. I'm from the same generation as yourself, and by the sounds of it had quite similar upbringing. We were always aware of the rules and where the boundries were, if we crossed them there were consequences. We would never dream of answering our parents back, and were always well behaved when there were visitors in the house. I too am trying to instill the same values into my Ds1 (3.2) but find it extremely difficult. He is a fantastic boy, and is kind sweet natured, lovable, he helps me out with Ds2 (16wks), but still we have times where it doesn't matter what you do or say, there is just no reasoning with him. I am fairly strict and do resort to taking favourite toys away etc (not yet resorted to smacking, but have come close) but sometimes nothing seems to work. I spoke to my mum and neither of us can ever remember myself or brothers/sisters behaving like this. Sometimes I just think that it is the world we are living in and that that is how it's going to be. It can be very tough to get them to understand when kids all around them are getting away with allsorts, and being rewarded with sweets etc. I'm not adverse to sweets and treats, but they should't be used as a source of bribery to get kids to behave, or to do what you want them to do, at the end of the day we are the parents and there should be a certain amount of respect. With sensible boundries and clear outlines, we can all bring up a nation of children who kind and respectful.