Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

pippi - can i get back to you on this tomorrow please ? my copy is from a couple of years back, it is sitting in a box somewhere, i will dig it out and let you know, ok ? ciao !

oh yes, no rush. I think I can control DD for a couple of more days.

thanks a lot though, or shall I say GRAZIEEE

ok, just don't put her on a naughty step for 2 days, she will fall asleep on it

Pippi stop reading parenting books!

sorry, should have added

I read anything me!! I need excuses and reasons to buy more books to pile up on my bedside table.

I am reading a great italian book at the moment, (gomorra, mentioned on another thread) but very grim so need different stimulae.

My dh is calling the loyers...

I have the same urge pippi, shame that nowadays I tend to forget what I read...

Fantastic thread, especially loved My2pworth and Martianbishop's rules for teenagers. I think a lot of us are trying to parent without humiliating or denigrating our children, but, in trying to be different from our parents we are in danger of throwing out the GOOD stuff - adults are in charge, the world does not revolve around the whims of children etc. Sometimes I feel I spent my childhood waiting around for my parents and my adulthood waiting around for my children

Message withdrawn

the Social Toddler, is the only toddler book i would recommend. that and the continuum concept. nothing else.

no naughty step, no dog training. when they are not yet up to explanations. no lots of detail or value judgements on the parents or the kids. and best of all, very little actual reading. i would lend you my copy if you lived near me.

For some reason this thread has made me really sad. Yes everyone knows one or two parents who give their children everything, but far more of the people I know are scraping together a living, wearing handmedowns and generally fairly poor.

I would love to meet some of these twentysomethings you talk about m2pw. I work with a guy who because of the unaffordability of housing lives with his parents in law. At 29, he is married with one child and a second on the way. They would settle for anything - shopping at Waitrose is a dim and distant prospect I'm afraid. He is now moving jobs away from a place he loves because of a fairly small pay-rise which might allow them to rent a flat and therefore move out of her parents home. I know another one who had to pretend to be a single mother to get a council flat to bring up her children. Neither of these are on traditionally 'low' incomes - well above average in fact.

And the thirtysomethings - Most people I know have no family support, and if I look at the previous generation of grandparents who actually looked after the children without questioning. In fact some still do, but the rest are too knackered, still working full time with no pension to retire.

I think that life is far harder for a lot of people than this supposed entitlement culture would suggest. It was a funny post, but I am scared by the number of people who have said "Too right mytpw". What a low opinion we have of our fellow man.

Is the problem with our society the collective sense of misanthropy and the general feeling that we are all right and everyone else is the problem?

Danae I agree with the recommendation of the Social Toddler - a really inspiring and child-centred read. Alfie Kohn's philosophy can't really be described in a few sentences but I thoroughly recommend his books also - Unconditional Parenting or Punished By Rewards are both fascinating.

I personally try to treat my child with respect and not use punishments including naughty step, withdrawal of privileges, time out or ignoring. I don't always succeed (this is a challenging age and this kind of discipline is firmly enmeshed in our culture )

Methods to try include modelling positive behaviour including useful skills such as politeness, negotiation, compromise and kindness. If your toddler's demands for help are always met with refusal or grumpiness then they are fairly unlikely to agree to help you when you ask for co-operation. A child whose needs have been met cheerfully and sensitively, is more likely to develop into a person who is willing and able to help others.

I think we ask far too much of young children these days in the way of obedience and correct social behaviour, and our ability as parents is questioned if we are not able / willing to use techniques designed to generate total obedience through fear. Letting children mature enough to be able to behave in a more socially acceptable way seems an unpopular method these days (it does not sell books, magazines or make for good TV). Guiding one's child to become a pleasant adult, through suggesting the correct way to behave, and treating them with dignity and patience, does not have instant results, and so has very little cachet in today's culture of instant gratification and quick crude fixes.

F & Z. Exactly what do you do then to discipline nortyness and to reward good bhvr. And how old is your child????

Will try anything at the mo, with rather difficult and VERY stubborn 3 yo.

And I still haven't read the thread in total, but Oblomov, it seems like you think you can create the behaviour and stage of development you want in your child by sheer willpower. You say your methods are not producing the standard of behaviour you want at this point in time - but you are thinking far too short term! As parents we are in this for the long run. A perfectly well-behaved toddler who has been forced to behave acceptably by coercive and violent discipline methods is almost certainly going to have problems becoming a well-adjusted adult. There are very very few naturally well-behaved toddlers around - the difficult and maddening phase is a natural and desirable developmental stage for small humans.

Hello B of B

my son is nearly 4. I don't do anything special to reward good behaviour. I expect good behaviour to develop naturally as he gets older and becomes aware and capable of what is expected of us socially. He likes to please me and is often very affectionate. He is becoming more capable of showing kindness and thoughfulness to other people. He is also becoming more capable of self-control although this varies wildly from day to day depending on mood / tiredness / phases of the moon .

I think my son behaves well every single day in that he is learning to be a useful member of our family and of society. He is doing this as fast as he can with our guidance and I trust him to do it. I suggest to him better ways to behave and ask him to stop doing things that are not acceptable. If I find myself getting very pissed off I will ask him to go upstairs or I will leave the room myself. This is to give me a chance to get my temper back and I don't think it is a good discipline method. It seems to frighten my son and doesn't encourage trust and co-operation IMO.

Punishments I try not to use. I don't think they are constructive or helpful, or even effective in the long term. They encourage a child to behave based on fear and selfishness. I would like my son to become an adult who behaves in a moral way because that is the right thing to do, and because he has consideration for other people, not because he is scared he will get in trouble if he doesn't. When I personally am struggling I appreciate help and understanding, not criticism and punishments. I think children are the same.

Reread my post - I intended it to be read between the lines that my son is also what you would call "stubborn and difficult" a lot of the time! I assumed people would know that all 3 year olds are like that, but reading back it maybe sounds like I think my son is some beautifully behaved prodigy.

I don't think stubbornness and so on are a problem at this age. I mean, don't get me wrong, it drives me mad! And you too I expect. But it is really normal and trying to change it dramatically in the short term will only make you both miserable. Think long term. Aim to have a pleasant and capable adult. Not many 3 year olds are very pleasant or very capable all of the time

Agree ENTP

I can't see the point of IMPOSING excellent behaviour (whatver that means) on a 3 year old. If my 10 or 15 year old did what ds does now I would be very very concerned. I think this is what some posters have misunderstood about me going on about stages of develeopment. Those stages of development really do exist, whether you like them or not.

If you stop shouting, smacking, punishing and generally demeaning a toddler, they do turn out to be independent, confident and very happy children. Most of all they will learn to TRUST adults. Ds has his moments of toddlerhood from hell, but nearly ALWAYS due to being hungry, thirsty, tired or some other biological/physical need that is bugging him. You can interpret these needs as "naughtiness" and then punish, OR you can try to understand them.

Franny, your posts on this thread have been superb.

creep

Oh, fuck off fishwits

aaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrff

I find it difficult to read this thread now .. so many long and involved points of view

I totally understand the spectrum of parenting and believe that you can most probably get to the same results from the 'permissive friend' to the strong parental ends of the spectrum

I am not keen on permissive, negotiating parenting I don't actually understand people who believe their 3 or 4 year old are too young to exhibit good behaviour in public .. it feels to me that they've read the literature and absorbed the 'too young for cognitive understanding, it will develop' approach without appreciating that it is a continuum

or maybe I have particularly well-behaved almost 3 year old .. and a particularly well-behaved 6 year old (who did tantrum and do strop but not to any great extent)

like many parents I don't have hard and fast rules ... I use whatever processes seem right at the time .. but always within the strong parameters of acceptable / unacceptable behaviour .. whinging / tantruming / selfishness is unacceptable ..

imw iht twig