Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

i am sorry, franny, but i refuse to not eat out beacuse we happen to live in a generally not very child friendly country, in comparison to some parts of europe. it would be giving in to society's so called "polite" demands. my son is NOT allowed to run amok in a restaurant, nor shout and throw cutlery about, if that is the image you got. if he raises his voice and laughs out loudly because he is happy i am not going to tell him to shut up and then leave. i would be giving in to British society's "norms", i won't do it.

2.5 hour meal!

I agree that French , Italian people treat children better in resturants, and don't pull faces when you enter with kids.

But at the same time, those children are expected to behave.

I agree my definition of loud and boisterous may be different to yours yr

If my son was loud and boisterous in a restaurant and I couldn't tone it down, I would leave

we seem to be at cross purposes, I am thinking of a child being pretty noisy and disturbing others, and you are talking about people expecting you to eat in complete silence

I was not suggesting you and your family roam around causing havoc like a gang of hooligans, I really wasn't

Well, I think that one of the reasons those children behave better is because they are included and socialised, and people don't throw up their hands in horror at the mere sight of a child. As opposed to this country, where children are expected to be cloistered off at home from sundown onwards, and if families do go out to eat/drink they are penned into ghastly soulless "family areas" out of the range and earshot of the other customers. It's a culture which invites disaster IMO.

zippiti - totally agree - uou said: "I think that parents should take the cue from the restaurant they pick and know their child"

if a restaurant is too posh for any level of noise and does NOT have high chairs, we generally don't go in, as it is obvious they don't wish to have children there, it is common sense really, isn't it ? the restaurant i talked about is French, under French managment, in London, very child friendly managment, we were just unlucky that it had some very poncey looking customers sittiing at ONE table, not the whole place, that particular evening. bloody annoying.

green - totally agree with your last post.

Oh I fully agree that children need to feel comfortable in an environment, and for that to happen they have to be used to the environment. So ours have been taken out since they were tiny.

But at the same time I do expect them to behave. And I wouldn't take a 2 year old to a very formal resturant well after his/her bed time.

Tired and cranky kids tendnot to behave well in my experience.

Wheras I applaud the continental attitude to children dining, and follw it myself, it should be seen as a laisez faire attitude. Some (note the some) British parents seem to feel that adpoting continental practices means that they can take their kids out and allow them to misbehave. If we adopt the continental practice we should do so across the board. French Mamans expet their kids to behave!

Yes that does sound annoying yr

what I REALLY hate though are those pubs where the whole experience is based around the belief that a child can NOT sit still or eat a proper meal

so they have soft play in the corner for jumping on between courses, balloons and tacky shite everywhere, and a really nasty processed kids menu with no vegetables on

oh god I am sounding snobby but not meaning to this time

It reminds me of all those Italian/French teeangers that used to come to Oxford to learn English in their summer holidays. Gosh, my work colleagues bloody hated them saying they spoke "too loudly" on the streets and took up too much space on the pavements with their rucksacks I really don't think us Brits. like children or even reasonably well-behaved teenagers Being LOUD is not the same as being badly behaved !

I hate those too franny..mil keeps making us go to a dining pub just like that..and half the time we don't have any children with us!

and another bugbear is why do they make such a mess in those places...

Depends tho. I had to endure two language students playing their choice of music on their phones at breakfast at a hotel I stayed in recently! Loud enough to he heard by the who resturant!

Just not done

I don't think we are really disagreeing all that much then MB - I certainly expect mine to behave properly in restaurants too.

But I don't think there's any harm in the occasional late night for a child who hasn't got any commitments the next day. It's a wildly exciting treat for them to be up with the grown-ups once in a while. Mine respond very well to it and behave like pious little adults, and say things like "All the other children are in bed now, aren't they Mummy?" and I say "Yes, and you should be too really, this is grown-up time - so you must remember to be very sensible and use your indoor voice" It's FUN. It's good for them IMO. And we don't ruin other people's evenings, unless they are miserable child-hating freaks who react to the very sight of a child out of its box after dark. If we have bratty over-tired behaviour we leave and go home.

MB - oh god I am very "continental" in my child rearing attitude, children NEED to be seen and heard and not stuck in doors to stop upsetting people. That DOES not equal letting him run amok ! We don't generally go to restauarnts or coffee shops that are too posh for a 3 year old !

My favourite one is a local Italian one we go to (under Italian managment). They play with my ds, call him a beautiful bambino and are very welcoming. I love being there and they like us too !

TBH I have never been to a restaurant in this country where I felt that children were not accepted.

My experiences are always very good actually. waiters/ess playing with DD, people from other tables smiling and saying how good she is etc. Not really it's true!

DD is 20m. she is well behave in restaurants, more well behaved than at home TBH - maybe because she has an audience (and she loves to pleased and be praised), or maybe because I have/am more strict with her when we are out. we go out once a week, always have. not in the evening anymore as she goes to bed and she will be a nightmare due to exhaustion.

Yes I would leave too if she becomes a nuisance for other people who are there to enjoy their meal.

Maybe we haven't hit the terrible twos and it's all to come for me...

calm dowm. I never said youdid let them run amok, just that *some people do!

Read my posts

they always run amok away from their own parents

MB - agree - this lot were out on very busy public streets though - where there was lots of other sorts of noise.

I agree that bad music played loudly by any teenager can be very irritating, esp. sitting next to you on a train or in a hotel ! I did that too though when I was a teenager, not because I was trying to be anti-social, I just loved loud music ! It is a development stage

I'm calm, I'm calm!

I'm not taking you personally at all - just arguing against the assumption that it's a Very Bad Thing to keep a child up past its bedtime every once in a while and intrude on "adult time" in a restaurant. It's interesting to see what others think. No hostility or anger coming from me MB, it must be the limitations of the medium I think. You can't see me grinning [grim]

I don't much like very bratty rowdy children and ineffectual parents much either. At any hour of the day.

Oh, you were talking to yellowrose, weren't you

gaggles of foreign students are annoying they block the pavements

I think children need to be taken out in the evening occasionally. It teaches them how to behave, carry on conversation. They also need to learn how to order and conduct themselves with wait staff

agree def not a bad thing to keep child up occasionally, as long as everyone has fun and the evening is not ruined for the child and the parents.

I feel one of those interesting twists coming...do children who have never learnt to deal with waiters and read a wine list suffer when it comes to future employment and career prospects

lol zippi

zippi - you are joking right ?