Mothers ignoring their children

[Fionn]

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

Oh how nice to know I'm not alone on this one. This is one of my pet peeves too. I hate seeing Mums chattering away into their mobile phones and completely ignoring their kids, or just blissfully oblivious (or pretending to be) as their child screams. There is a young girl who lives down the road from my parents (I'm not getting at her age - I am a young Mum myself...)she has a little boy of four and a dog. She takes the little boy out for a walk in the buggy, with a blanket tucked up under his chin and a dummy in and barely says a word to him. When I take my son out (he is 3 1/2) we talk about the flowers and trees (he can actually identify several different trees) we talk about what animals there might be around, count cars...
I just feel this little boy is missing out on so much.

Have you not heard the phrase, 'don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes?'

You know absolutely nothing about the lives of these women, their histories, their daily pressures and frustrations.

What a self-righteous, narrow-minded, offensively fascistic view.

I think Fionn and Jenny should read this .... enlightenning !
www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

sniksnak, I think your response is a little extreme!! Who do you think I am referring to as "these women"? Of course there are pressures on all mothers, some a lot more than others, but I don't think that's an excuse to ignore children. And it's news to me that concern for the emotional development of children is "narrow minded" and "fascistic".

i think you should be careful not to judge too freely! I agree with sniksnak

you are only seeing a second of these people's lives? how do you know that they've not had a rough morning!? how do you know that that conversation on the mobile phone is a quick snatch... i'm on my way!, how do you know that they've not already had their red bus and green tree chat..???

we've all had moments when we are not 100% attentive to out kiddies... i love my dd to bits, we talk, i tell her about the flowers and birds etc... but i also take time out for myself... where i am lost in my own world and she is lost in hers!! i'm not a perfect mother 100% of the time.. and i don't think anyone is.. don't be so judgemental...

thewiseone - an interesting article!

I too have been guilty of ignoring my child. Normally when we walk into town we go through the park and I will let her have a run around and talk about the trees, flowers etc. But there are times when you are in a rush and you don't have time to let them out or have the inclination to respond to their repetitive cries of 'dog, dog, dog'. Sometimes children have to learn that they are not the centre of the universe!

During the day I normally give 100% to my dd, when her father comes home he will give her hugs, kisses and cuddles and then we will try to discuss what we have done during the day. Dd will shout, dump toys on our knees, cry, etc for our attention. However I don't feel guilty for ignoring her for this short period, I feel that she has had me all day and there are things that I need to discuss with dh. She cannot have our full-on attention ALL the time.

I do agree with the other comments made here that it is easy to judge other mothers, I do it all the time myself, I am forever thinking, "I wouldn't do that, or She's doing that all wrong" but then I have to check myself. I am only seeing a small portion of that person's life, probably on a bad day. I am sure that if the same person took any notice of me they would come up with loads of criticisms of their own.

Read the "for all the mothers" thread, and lets give other mothers our support, not our criticism!

Bea
I agree, but there's a big difference between quite rightly wanting a break from the kids (I'm not saying for a moment that mine get 100% of my attention all the time or that I'm never cross/fed-up/impatient with them)and telling children to shut up or giving a toddler a dummy because you can't be bothered to talk to him/her.

BTW I have just seen a snippet of 'This is Your Life' focusing on a woman who was dumped as a baby and brought up in a rough, poverty stricken area without much love and care. Guided by her experiences she has gone to set up refuges for abandoned and orphaned Vietnamese childen. So Fionn, not all kids who have a bad time grow up to be criminals or drug addicts!

I sent a text message while dd was playing in the park and if looks could kill from the other mothers around! I talk to my child but I also text my friends... I happen to fall right in the middle of these two ways of thinking. I get annoyed at the shouty mothers if I'm having a lovely day with dd, but I know where they are coming from when dd has wound me up... I have to say that living in a small town you see the Mums that are like that constantly and I think that is what really gets you down. I agree that you can't judge a person on a snippet of their actions but come on, surely Fionn has a valid point in regards to the whole bad parenting concept? I can't say that I've never pre-judged a person, but I hope that doesn't make me a fascist?!

Fionn, I'm sure all of us are concerned that children everywhere get the best possible start in life.

And the best thing about mumsnet is that it exists for support, not as a forum for running down other people's parenting ability/style.

What I found offensive about your posting were two points:

a) the implication that only certain 'types' of people were good enough to be parents, the rest must have "compulsory training" to qualify (that is fascism),

and b) it would seem you have been unfortunate to escape all of the pressures that have a negative impact on parenting quality, eg financial pressures, relationship difficulties, worries about housing, the future, general lack of support and security....lucky you being able to be a perfect mother in a perfect world.

Last para should read 'fortunate' not un...

I just didn't like the bit that implied that these are somehow 'unloved' children and that therefore they are more likely to end up in crime and taking drugs. That is a fairly middle-class attitude which kinda riles on a working-class gal as myself who probably came from the sort of background that Fionn views in horror.

I don't think it was the concept of "bad parenting" (whatever that may be) that was the problem, it was the way it was phrased - "compulsory training", assumptions about "mothers who don't even smile..." etc.

It's making a sweeping judgement from a glimpse of someone's life.

I am "guilty" of finding constant conversation with a child pretty boring. Therefore, I relish opportunities to not talk ALL the time to my child.

Sweeping statements aside, I still think Fionn has a point about perpetual bad parenting - and I don't think I'm a closet middle class-er! I'm no socio-economist either but from my small experience as being a voluntary worker for the NSPCC where the courses I run in schools for 14 yr olds is aimed to 'get in' to the next generation of parents and help them understand how to be better parents. One of the main themes we work on is comunication - and it IS sorely lacking in some families... What Fionn has highlighted is this issue and when you see people in the street swearing and hitting their children that is 'bad' parenting (for want of a better word.) It may not happen a lot in that family but it will be happening in someone elses somewhere. THAT does get to me and that is why I volunteer my time to hopefully prevent a person from being like that with their children (even if it's just one out of the 100 I have seen.)
You can argue the toss over making judgements but you can't deny the fact that it is happening all over the country can you? I might be wrong but wasn't that Fionn's real point??

(Pleased I came on tonight, nothing like a good debate!)

sniksnak and others, OK, I admit my comment on "training" comes across as dogmatic, perhaps I should have said "advice and help", though you'll probably now accuse me of being patronising. And I know people who have some of the worries and pressures you mention who still love their kids and make time for them. My objection is to parents who view their children as inconvenient at best and unimportant at worst, and I do think it's a bit disingenuous to say that one can't tell those parents. Becoming a parent makes you acutely aware of how fragile young children are emotionally and how easily damaged they could be by their emotional needs being constantly ignored by their parents, and that's what originally prompted me to start this topic. I don't for a moment claim to be a perfect parent in a perfect world but I'm surprised that I'm not allowed the freedom of expression to object to parents who treat their children badly.

I think you answered my question without reading it, judging by the timing of our posts Fionn! But yeah I thought that was the gist of it really, phew...!

But Fionn, you are being "allowed" freedom of expression. Just not everyone agrees with your expressions!

Oh how I long for a child I could order to stay in his pushchair! On trips out, if my attention is wandering, my sons have so many ways of pulling me back. They just get louder and naughtier until I'm there with them again.

I'm certainly guilty of ignoring mine at times when we're out, just as I'm guilty of ignoring them at home. I, too, have sighed at seeing dour-looking parents crassly ignoring their offspring, but I do agree with bea - you are only seeing a tiny fragment of their day. You don't witness the bedtime story and the silly singing in the car.Or if you want to paint a black picture, the one-hour shouting match and the cigarette stubbed on the child's arm. Either version could be true.

Slightly off at a tangent, but still on the subject of ignoring your chilcren, I do feel that combining adult socialising and taking children out is, IME, not always very practical and can be really detrimental to children.

I have had to tell two of my best friends that this summer, very sadly, I will not be able to go on days out with them.

They each have an older child - 7, 8 years old - friends of my oldest son. The older children all get on fine. They do their own thing (for some of the time) and we do ours. We seamlessly form a relaxed group.

But now my toddler comes into the equation. I simply cannot divide my attention between my toddler, my older son and another adult. Last summer, when my toddler was still taking long naps in his pushchair, it was easy to divide my attention between a friend and my older son. As my toddler got more demanding, I realised I was seeing him sometimes as a hindrance - and my friends were then following my lead. It just wasn't fair on him, so, for the time being, I am cutting out these group trips.

Rhubarb, actually I do come from a working class background (Mum a nurse and Dad a baggage handler if you want to know!) and I didn't mean to imply at all that a working class background makes you more likely to be involved in drugs or crime. So I'm not the only one guilty of assumptions tonight!!
Lizzer, that NSPCC work sounds really interesting and is exactly what I had in mind by my poorly-expressed "training" comment.

Fair enough Fionn, I guess your message just came across wrong. Lizzer has a point, there are children being abused out there in one way or another, I just get a bit peeved when people seem to assume that it all stems from a working-class background. Although I realise Fionn that you weren't saying that, it just sounded as though you were implying it. I'm off to bed now, happy debating!

PS IMO advice and support IS what's needed Fionn, we need to start changing something. My job is a tiny part of a huge problem but I'm proud to be doing something I believe in. There are lots of charities and council-funded organisations that have projects starting up trying to break the cycle of behaviour- I suppose we can only wait a few years to see if this is a realistic expectation. I , in my innocence (a-hem!), would like to think there is some hope...

PS IMO advice and support IS what's needed Fionn, we need to start changing something. My job is a tiny part of a huge problem but I'm proud to be doing something I believe in. There are lots of charities and council-funded organisations that have projects starting up trying to break the cycle of behaviour- I suppose we can only wait a few years to see if this is a realistic expectation. I , in my innocence (a-hem!), would like to think there is some hope...

I can see where you are coming from Fionn, certainly if this is the mother's attitude most of the time. Mind I am as guilty as the next when it comes to these sorts of things. I have a DS aged 3 and yes if I am out with a friend I have not seen for ages and I can hear DS asking for something for the upteenth time when I have told him in a minute or whatever I will ask him to be quiet because mummy is talking. When DH comes in from work we make DS take turns in talking as much as I agree our children are the most important people in our lives I feel I have a right to speak to my DH when he comes in from work too and it is a good thing for DS to learn turn taking in conversation.

I also believe it is good for children to have time to themselves to let their imaginations run riot, who knows as the mother sits on the park bench, no doubt keeping an eye on their child's safety from a distance, what the child is acting out. Perhaps the roundabout is a pirate ship or the two or three trees are a huge jungle with wild animals. As lovely as it would be to share these experiences with our young children I do not believe that they always have the vocabulary to explain what they are doing and by asking them you are bringing them back to the real world and perhaps imposing our own ideas on their play. Not that I am saying children should always be left to play like this but I personally feel that time should be allowed for them to play on their own.

I'm sure if you had met DS and I today I would have been on the list of bad mothers. It is true what others are saying if you are only seeing a few seconds of someone's life you cannot judge. Today I promised DS we would go to the park but explained that we had a couple of shops to go into first and he would need to be well behaved. When we were in the last shop I needed to go into DS started to play up, after warning him on several occasions to stand nice, stop emptying the shelves, stop winding himself round Mummy (he was wearing a wrist strap at the time) and him ignoring me I had to give him an ultimatum (which broke my heart) that if he didn't stop we would not be going to the park. His next move was to wriggle free of my hand, wind himself round the man in front of me (poor man wrapped up in wrist strap), reach behind the till and ring the bell for the supervisor! So with that I had to carry out my punishment and told him he would not be going to the park. Anyone who saw me after I left the shop and did not know what had happened probably had me down as a cruel mother. I was dragging DS down the road with him hysterically screaming and shouting "I want to go to the park", "I am a good boy". The more I tried to explain to him the worse he got! However he was all hugs and cuddles this afternoon which were very much reciprocated.

Also being 35 wks pg we have now developed a new habit of watching 1 or 2 videos in the afternoon, 3 to 4 afternoons a week and although not feeling that TV watching is the best of things for DS have decided to let this go for now as it gives me a break (selfish mother) and at times find myself asleep on the sofa while DS is watching (kitchen door locked to stop him getting to anything he shouldn't). However having been a bit paranoid about this and my DS having had a bit of a speech delay, which is now more or less sorted out, I questioned this amount of TV watching with the various health professionals I am in contact with, and they all seem delighted as it shows he has good a concentration span now which was what most of his problems were down to. I have been advised that this is fine provided he has plenty of other activities to balance out his day with. I have decided not to feel guilty about this either although I know some would say this was shocking and not good for a child.

Anyway sorry to ramble on I am v tired now and should be in bed so if I have said anything that has offended anyone it was not intentional and if it makes no sense just ignore me.