Mothers ignoring their children

[Fionn]

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

I asked my French friend about this yesterday. She said the French definitely smack their kids as much as the English. Also, any debate about the pros and cons of smacking is in its infancy in France.

Sorry sml, but I don't think anyone should worry about other people in the supermarket, that is not the point.

I have been in the position with dd starting to want her feed just as I approached the checkouts and invariably chose the longest queue of all, and at 3 months they don't want attention, if they're hungry all they want is milk....and the people around me were the last of my thoughts sorry!!

As for judging people...I must admit I have done this in the past, before becoming a mum myself, and meeting other mums, and a friend of mine has got one of those terrible toddlers who would just throw himslef on the floor screaming and it's not always possible to know the cause (or to avoid it anyway), so after finding myself in a few embarassing situations with them (and I know it's not a case of bad parenting), I have stopped making hasty judgements, as you can't possibly know what's behind that scene.

(that said I do believe there are bad parents, maybe they rushed into parenthood without realising the demands or they have so many problems of their own that they end up neglecting their children, but you might not spot them at the supermarket!!!)

chiara, I don't really want to resurrect this extensively misunderstood thread, but as you have addressed yourself to me specifically, I will reply to you. If your baby starts to want a feed just as you join the supermarket queue - why not give him/her one? You just let the checkout staff know and go and sit on the chairs. Any supermarket worth its salt will put your shopping through for you while you either breastfeed or give a bottle. Surely it's the most natural thing in the world to keep your baby happy as well as not causing grief to those around you. I really don't understand why you should be wanting to uphold your right to let your baby scream in these circumstances.

So sml you've done this then?

Do you have you own private supermarket, built in trolley freezer or personal shopper?

The way I look at it that at one point in your life you have been a baby, and I have said this before to a horrid man and it shut him up! Babies crying and getting in the way with buggies is just part of life for everyone and not just for a minority.

Sml - what you seem to be saying is that every time our babies cry we must stop what we're doing and attend to them immediately, whatever we're doing.

What if we have to get the shopping home by a certain time to meet other commitments such as picking up an older child etc etc?

I would say that both of my children were fed 'on demand' - but sometimes they just had to wait 10 mins or nothing would get done!

fairy - of course I have fed babies in the supermarket, many times. Why do you apparently find this suggestion so offensive?

mopsy - I am really tired of being so misunderstood. Please understand that I am not telling you to do anything, and the situation you describe is manifestly different from the ones that distressed me.

I am curious about this Sml - would supermarkets really put your shopping through the till and pack it up while you fed your baby?. Our Sainsbury's always seems so understaffed (with queues to match) that it would never occur to me that they might do something like that.

there's always going to be a "what if...?" situation to make a solution impossible, but I'm not really sure it's worth getting so het up about. In general I agree with sml. I know for a fact that where I shop there is NO chance of getting any help of anyone, be it other shoppers or staff. But when my babies cry/cried in public or at home, I would always always do something, anything, everything in my power to help/console them.

For the sake of the few who need endless reassurances/clarifications, I am talking about a distressed/hungry baby (or older child, for that matter. - they need tlc too!), not a toddler having a heeby geeby fit because they couldn't have a new car/ fire engine / whatever.

Saying that, I have been evil mother stroppy cow today. So much toy snatching & fighting I could (and have) screamed. Someone did laugh & comment to me after I muttered a comment under my breath that I said things that other people only thought. So I might be great (ha) with kids in distress but I'll sign up for the most impatient evil stroppy mother of the year award. Who am I to judge?

I think maybe sml goes to the supermarket when it is not peak time. I know that I have shopped (and I always go with dh for that extra support) if dd started crying I would either get bored and indifferent looks from the teenage till assistant who never even bothers to say 'hello' to us, but instead will chat to her friend on the next till for five minutes leaving us waiting, or I will get impatient sighs from the people queuing behind me as they think that now my baby is crying I will hold everyone up. Which I don't.

When I was breastfeeding I would never dream of feeding her in the supermarket, I would not want to be the focal point of shoppers attention, the embarrassed looks from men, the curious stares from children and the disapproving looks from certain OAP's. It might be my right and all that, but some things I like to keep private and me feeding my baby is a personal thing, not some free-for-all show for shoppers.

Also sml, who bags your shopping for you? And how do you pay if you are sat down b/f your baby? Do you ask an assistant to get a chair for you? It just doesn't seem practical somehow. I agree with others on here that leaving them crying for 10 minutes whilst you bag your shopping and pay will not do them any harm in the long run. And if shoppers look at you in disgust so what? So will many of them if you plonk yourself down in a chair, abandoning your shopping to overworked staff whilst you b/f your baby.

I think this thread calls for some common-sense.

There'll be no changing sml's mind on this one, methinks. I know for a fact that I probably could demand that the staff in the supermarket run all my shopping through the checkout, pack, pay and hop, skip and jump back to the car with my shopping for me, but I wouldnt want to. And I bet they'd rather my baby yelled for 10 minutes then be asked to leave their posts to look after me.

Supermarkets in my neck of the woods vary so much in staffing levels and degree of busyness, I suppose it depends on when and where you shop..

That's funny Enid, I've always assumed the exact opposite, that they'd rather put themselves out a bit than have a baby screaming and stressing people out. Change my mind about what, anyway? My original point was that I find other people's babies sobbing inconsolably for twenty minutes at a time in their car seats while their mother does some unhurried shopping fairly distressing. I still find it distressing, and I can't imagine what I'm supposed to have changed my mind about.

Rhubarb, the quiet supermarket periods are generally in the middle of the morning and mid afternoon aren't they? As I work f/t, I am hardly likely ever to hit those.
Of course I don't ask someone to get a chair for me - there are usually chairs on the far side of the till. As for being a spectacle while breastfeeding, well that's what big coats, scarves etc are for isn't it!
You say that you wouldn't breastfeed because of the looks you might get, but you don't mind someone looking badly at you because your baby's screaming. Some priorities in the wrong order here?
(I feel constrained to add that I don't go round looking badly at people if their children are playing up, before someone accuses me of that.)

On the general subject of helpful staff, I find the staff are more likely to be over helpful than underhelpful. Many, many times I've been offered help packing my shopping and taking it to the car when I don't need it, and a few times when I did. I'd be surprised if any of the major supermarkets wouldn't provide someone to help pack shopping if asked, however crowded they are.
I think if you look, you'll find notices up offering help round many supermarkets.

What I find genuinely puzzling about this thread is all the arguments that people are dredging up to try and justify something that we are all surely agreed is undesirable, ie our babies crying for long periods in crowded places.

sml, I think people are trying to justify it because they feel hurt and upset that anyone would think that they are being inconsiderate because their baby cries in the supermarket. It would be nice to meet people halfway, ie by recognising that there are times when a perfectly good mother may have to let her baby cry for 10 minutes, perhaps it would be preferable to her to feed her baby in the relative privacy of her car. Of course noone likes to see distressed children with uncaring parents, but I don't think you could accuse people on this thread of being uncaring parents by any means.

Enid, if you go back to my first posting on this subject, you can see that what distressed me was someone simply carried on with her entire shopping in an unhurried manner while pointedly ignoring her howling baby the whole way round. When she got to the tills, she picked it up, and it stopped crying. I also witnessed two other similar incidents on different days.
If you look at what people have said, no-one has actually owned up to doing that, in fact (unless I've missed one). Everyone who's attacked what I said has cited less extreme and perfectly understandable examples of babies crying. So I have not actually reached the extreme position of condemning every whimper that you credit me with. In reply to the situations that people have raised, I've merely suggested alternatives, which may or may not be suitable.

I'm getting rather fed up with this subject actually...! A last thought: I am just wondering, if I see this woman again, will I have the courage to offer to help her, or would she be terribly offended? I wonder if I will try it?

I'm not trying to be nasty about what you wrote sml, but this is what I want to know - where do you shop?
It cannot be in any of the ones I use, as before I had ds mk2 I had to complain about staff general unhelpfulness, especially if I ever dared to ask for help to pack my bags.
I appreciate what yoy are saying that mothers wandering round for 20 minutes with a screaming baby, I would draw the line at that. But each to their own, and that as I said before is just life.

Hey, when I was in Los Angeles I saw a woman breastfeeding her baby while browsing through the baby clothes at the gap. I was so impressed (at her efficiency) that I complimented her. She looked at me like it was the most normal thing in the world. (I am from la and I can assure you that it may be someplace, but definitely not in la).
I could barely read a book while feeding my son, but when my daughter is born (september) I am surely going to try this balancing act. It seems to be the only way to deal with the pressures of daily life and the needs of my baby. But just in case, SML where DO you shop? I'm lucky if the tellers in my supermarket stop chatting for 30 secs to ring up my groceries. And once when I did demand some help with bagging, I ended up with the cans on top of the strawberries and the mags in with the freezer goods....

Hi sml- sorry to reply when you want to let it lie! But I think that unfortunately there's sometimes a conflict between what parents feel it is right to do ideally and how they behave in certain circumstances, and sometimes these circumstances are beyond their control.
I remember wheeling my boys along an extremely busy market in their double buggy when they were absolutely tiny. After a time both of them woke up and started wailing whilst we were stuck in a sea of people. I don't know what sort of demeanour I presented to the zillions of people surrounding me but I was feeling awful and was desperate to stop somewhere and feed them but there was nowhere and I was stuck in the crowd. I felt very guilty for not foreseeing this situation, for being there in the first place, and I'm sure my blood pressure had rocketed! Therefore, when a (well-meaning, I'm sure) woman approached me and said "Look, your babies are crying, they are hungry, you must stop and feed them," I was less than grateful and felt that she was only telling me what I already knew and already felt awful about. I'm sorry to say that I snapped something to the effect that she could feel free to calm one of the babies down and push the buggy while I breastfed the other walking along or lead me to a place to sit and she took offence and disappeared into the crowd. I actually agree with you big-time about not letting babies get distressed if at all possible but I still think it's hard to know people's circumstances and guess at why they are acting as they are. I'm sure that woman thought I was horrible for letting my babies weep with hunger; I felt horrible myself but also helpless and panic stricken. I actually felt a bit overwhelmed and unable to see a way out of the situation. Luckily I found a small park with a bench soon afterwards!
I think it?s quite likely that women letting their babies cry in supermarkets- even those who appear unperturbed and ?let? the baby cry for some time- may be feeling as helpless as I was that day. They may have hang-ups about feeding in public or find it difficult to ask for help or feel absolutely desperate to get some food in the house or have a baby who cries constantly and be feeling dreadful and depressed about that or about other things. In those sorts of scenarios it?s hard for people to see their way to what to others may appear fairly simple solutions- like feeding the baby, asking for help etc. They may in theory be as passionate about meeting a baby?s needs quickly and not imposing distressed cries on the public as we are but in those particular circumstances feel powerless to act as they?d like. Er, have written more than I meant to and don?t know where these leaves your brave thought of offering help?!? What do you think?

Hi Scummymummy,
rest assured if I'd been that woman, I'd have offered to do as you suggested, ie hold one baby! She was a wimp to disappear and leave you with two crying babies! But if I offered to help someone who was so pointedly ignoring her baby (I still have this picture of her taking a jar off the shelf, and casually reading the label while it screamed behind her!), and if she said "No, I don't need any help" in a composed way, then I can't think of anything that I might realistically have said that wouldn't be a criticism of her parenting style, and as I said before, it is clearly not on to do that over the head of a crying baby. Hence my hesitation.

I agree entirely with your last paragraph, and have been in the same situation myself. But I just don't think it's right to justify it, because there are alternatives.

fairy, in the last six months, I've shopped in all six big supermarkets, in central London, Reading, Slough, Plymouth and various other places. ( sounds like a horrendous sort of alternative CV doesn't it!) If I approach with 3 under fives, I get offers of help at the checkout more often than not.

Scummymummy, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have always been of the view of not leaving either of my two to cry, even in the middle of the night when I am desperate for sleep. There has however been the odd occassion when I've been out and I have got myself into a situation where for various reasons, I have just had to let a baby cry for a bit. It IS upsetting to think that others might be judging you as a bad parent for something which is by no means representative of your general approach to parenthood (although I don't think that Sml's comments fall into this category).

Sml, there are certainly no chairs by the tills in our supermarket and there is no feeding area. What I normally do with a crying / tired baby at the till is jiggle her about and cuddle her while packing up my shopping one handed. This is obviously quite difficult and I have never once received an offer of help (although have had lots of glares for being slow). I would rather wait until I can feed her in the car as even if I did manage to feed her in the shop, she would no doubt wake up and start crying again as soon as she was put back in the trolley. Much better to feed her and then drive home as I know the car will send her into a deep sleep.

Wow, SofiaAmes! I'm really envious of the LA woman managing to do that, what a timesaver! I did once carry my DD to answer the door while she carried on b-feeding, but did need to maintain a rather odd posture though. Wouldn't it be fantastic if there was some sort of sling which could hold your baby in a comfortable position for b-feeding? Or is there such a product avilable?

Elwar, there are some slings that are good for breastfeeding discreetly on the move. I think Bettababy promote theirs on that basis (or is it Huggababy...or both maybe?) The excellent Wilkinet also supposedly offers this option but I have never tried it.
I'd have helped too Scummy - and taken you up on your offer of cuddling a twin! We have all been in those nightmarish situations, after all, and you are so right to remind us that it's pretty hard to second-guess a stranger's real feelings.
In SE London we are lucky to have a choice of supermarkets and some of them are huge and daunting places. We choose Waitrose because it is so family-friendly - feeding room for parents and babes, mini-trolleys for toddlers, staff who genuinely offer to help and who almost always chat to ds as we are putting our shopping through. Waitrose is not the cheapest supermarket, but we feel the "value-added" is worth the few £ extra. And the produce is the best quality we've found, so we don't feel it is money wasted on any front.

Marina, have to agree about Waitrose. They're the most child-friendly supermarket in my area. They never mind if you open things to feed children (as long as you pay for them obviously!), always smile & talk to ds at the checkout, and the lady who does wine-tasting always has a water biscuit for him!

If supermarkets aren't helpful to mothers, particularly those with small babies, then people should complain or the situation won't change. I'm not suggesting that people who are already having a hard day should make it worse by making a scene, but unless services like packing bags, providing chairs etc are asked for, they might not ever get provided

I shop in a big London branch of Sainsbury's in an unposh area and I remember going shopping when ds was very tiny and the lady at the cashtill said, 'You look tired, dear, sit down and I'll get someone to pack your bags for you." Bliss. They have also regularly opened a new till just for me because I was with a beginning-to-get-fretfull baby. I also don't think twice about asking for help with packing my shopping - after all, I'm a customer and paying a lot of money. They do actually employ people to pack bags and carry shopping so it's not as if it's such an outrageous request. And my Sainsbury's definitely has chairs (also a fantastic Starbucks, packed to the gills with breastfeeding women having a nice cup of tea!). I don't think any of us should hestitate to ask for help with our shopping - it's called customer service and it's what they are there for!

Just thought I'd report back on my trip to the continent (as promised a bit lower down this thread)

I spent 4 days with relatives - 4 couples who had 2 to 4 children each between a few months old and 8yo- and I debated the discipline issue in French and Belgian children....

First of all of my sample (very small I know !) 2 of the couples had never spanked, the other 2 had but only some of their kids. Depending on their (kids) temperment. They do not have a "terrible 2s" expression but they feel their kids are at their most "terrible" at around 3.... but they do have such a phase. Spanking or raising voice/changing tone seemed to be their way of dealing with it. None of them would have spanked a young child (young being generally before 2).

They were on the whole (as I observed it) fairly relaxed about their kids schedule (bed time routine) and their expectations...they were left to get on with things. Children ate at a dinner table, watched no TV and played outside a lot. This was over 3 days and the weather wasn't great.
The difference I noticed was NOT that their kids were better behaved than what I see here but that there was family dinner time with a lot of interaction. I felt that these kids had access to their (both) parents a lot and were getting a lot of support guidance.

Anyway - it was fun and DS had a great time!

Last post I promise! I wonder if that woman sml saw didn't pick up her baby sooner as she would find it impossible to do one-handed shopping? When my dd was tiny she would cry simply for me to pick her up, if I was shopping, this simply wasn't possible. After a while I used a baby harness, but if this woman came by car, getting your baby into a harness on your own can be quite tricky too. The baby was probably asleep when she first started shopping but then woke up halfway through.

I think sml that if you do see her again she will probably be grateful for the offer of help. I have done this when I have seen mothers wanting to browse through clothes shops, or go into the changing rooms, very often they will smile gratefully and I relish the opportunity to hold the little one until their mother has finished. After all, we mums need a bit of space and life too.

And at least this woman picked her child up at the checkout, so she wasn't completely indifferent to her child's screams, but probably wanted to get her shopping done too. I'm sure she would be highly amused to see what a long discussion she has provoked!