Mothers ignoring their children

[Fionn]

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

Tigermoth, thank you for sharing that story which will hopefully make people think a little more before judging someone.
Following this thread it has made me think, especially as I was going around the supermarket with a whingy 22 month old today. She is slightly under the weather, bit of a runny nose, and so a bit grumpy. I had nothing in the fridge as we had been away for a couple of days so had no choice but to go. I felt myself looking around at other people to see if they were looking at my wimpering girl who despite having her favourite pull-along car strapped to the trolley and me feeding her strawberries from the trolley still managed to make quite a bit of noise. I hated the idea that someone might be judging me.
I did whince though when I read Robbie's posting of the child that was whacked twice by its mother and then dragged off by 2 other 'helping' adults. It just sounded so unfair to be publically humiliated like this. On the hitting debate I do think that if a parent wishes to discipline their child with a smack this is their discretion, in a controlled way, ie with warnings, explaination and a controlled slap, not a hard whack. I don't but I still think it is a parents right as a form of discpline as long as it isn't more like a punch and I don't agree with doing it in front of an audience. I think this public humiliation was probably more upsetting for the child than the whack.
Tigermoth, I don't think your story was like this.
What do others feel about this?

Just have to add - my son loves the supermarket too (as long as he's not hungry). He thoroughly enjoys all the people to look at and flirting with all the old ladies/three-year-old girls who smile at him. In fact, he loves being out much more than being alone with dull old me. It's a bit depressing sometimes! When we're out, people often say how lovely and smiley he is when he's been whinging his head off with me. Ho hum.

This sort of thing gets me down too, in fact I would say I feel like shouting at people who ignore their children too! To give you an example: I had to take my eldest and my middle child to the child development centre as they're having problems with their speech. There was a very nice lady there with her children who was very friendly, however there were also another couple of women there with a little girl, one the mother, the other the aunt. They have to be the most pig ignorant women it has been my misfortune to meet! they ignored the child for much of the time, not even playing with her, then when she demanded their attention they got annoyed! it really made my blood boil. I agree with your sentiments entirely: why bother having children if you can't be bothered with them? I come from a background where i was'nt loved or valued and it made me determined to love my children all the more.

But how do you know what they were feeling inside, Shaz30? Maybe the mum was sick with worry about her child's speech and just COULDN'T focus on her child at that precise moment.

I completely agree with the people who are saying that consistently unacceptable parenting DOES occur and that families in that situation need help and support and the children, in serious cases, protection from their parent(s)but I don't think much can be gleaned into which families need such support from a short exposure. Surely all the stories here show that? I've screamed like a banshee at my boys during experiences like yours, Batters, on more than one occasion. I don't know what passersby thought and tbh I don't really care. As I explained to my boys, once I'd calmed down, I love them very, very much and screamed to get their attention and because I was absolutely terrified that they would be hurt. I reacted out of instinct as much as anything else, I think. Parenting is a learning experience like any other, I guess, and we're all going to make big and small mistakes along the way. We can't judge when a series of big mistakes constitutes consistently bad parenting from one look, IMO.

tigermoth, reading your story, I honestly thought you had seen me in Cardiff yesterday! I had a terrible time with dd2 (almost 3 yrs old), and not only did I have the stress of trying to keep her walking - she was either running off at a rate of knots, or sitting down and "dangling" on my hand every 2 yards, trying to make sure dd1 was OK, trying to get to the station in time for my train, I also had this thread on my mind, & was worrying even more about what passers-by were thinking. I try my best to keep my patience in those type of situations - I've learnt through bitter experience that shouting just makes it worse, but in the past I always thought that other mothers were looking and thinking "poor her, I know just what she's going through" In fact, the woman on the till in WHSmith said exactly that to me. But having followed this thread, I started to get really paranoid that some people were watching and judging, which I thought I'd got over years ago. Please reassure me that most of you do sympathise when you see other mothers in this type of situation!

But how do you know what they were feeling inside, Shaz30? Maybe the mum was sick with worry about her child's speech and just COULDN'T focus on her child at that precise moment.

I completely agree with the people who are saying that consistently unacceptable parenting DOES occur and that families in that situation need help and support and the children, in serious cases, protection from their parent(s)but I don't think much can be gleaned into which families need such support from a short exposure. Surely all the stories here show that? I've screamed like a banshee at my boys during experiences like yours, Batters, on more than one occasion. I don't know what passersby thought and tbh I don't really care. As I explained to my boys, once I'd calmed down, I love them very, very much and screamed to get their attention and because I was absolutely terrified that they would be hurt. I reacted out of instinct as much as anything else, I think. Parenting is a learning experience like any other, I guess, and we're all going to make big and small mistakes along the way. We can't judge when a series of big mistakes constitutes consistently bad parenting from one look, IMO.

Sorry- refreshed the wrong screen in a moment of mental aberration.

I have to say I have read through this thread and now feel extremely paranoid about my parenting-knowing there are parents out there obviously having the time to 'observe' others 'failing' perhaps to make themselves feel better? I don't know you certainly can't make judgements based on a fleeting encounter. Also, having suffered from PN depression for 4 years and for 4 years battled with feelings of failure (if you're so low you can't even get out of bed the last thing you feel like doing is being the all singing dancing, child entertainer) and guilt at not being the parent my beautiful children deserve. I have had therapy and antidepressants which have helped a little but nothing can take away my guilt at the years they 'lost' .My 'punishment' for being that terrible parent that I am. I also want to speak for the mothers who find Sainsbury's their salvation on a shitty day when they haven't had a wink of sleep all night and the baby won't stop crying even now. Maybe Sainsbury's is the safest place the baby can be?

ames - I am sorry that you feel hurt by my remarks, but please don't make any assumptions about how I behave towards other mothers. I don't think it's appropriate to make personal criticisms over the head of a crying baby, unless a child's safety is in question. Raising a general discussion in a forum like this is more appropriate.

Secondly, you obviously couldn't have been the mother I saw last time, because when she reached the till, she finally did pick her baby up from its car seat, and it promptly subsided into red-faced, hiccuping, relative silence.

Thank you Shaz30 - this is exactly the sort of situation i mean.

Lots of people are objecting to the snap-judgements being made about situations. Don't we all make snap judgements? It's human nature, a survival instinct, we see a situation and make a judgement. It might be that your judgement brings you out on the side of the mother, or on the side of the child, but we all do it.

Shaz30 and Scummymummy's postings brought something back to my mind, maybe not entirely in keeping with this thread but I think it shows how hurtful people on the outside can be if they make judgements. When my DS was two there were concerns about his speech and behaviour, autism was hinted at and understandably I was devistated. I was put in touch with various doctors, speech therapists etc who all wanted to assess him. On my first visit to my local child development centre I was understandably nervous and easily upset. I called into the local shop just a few doors down from the centre to get some chocolate buttons for DS (was feeling v sorry for us both at the time) and tissues for myself as I was already close to tears. The shop assistant was talking to DS and not getting much response from him, then she asked him his name. After giving him a moment to reply and him saying nothing I told her his name. She then asked me his age and when I said two she said "I would have thought a child of two could have told me his name". At that I picked up my shopping and DS and ran out of the shop in tears. Thankfully DS' problems have sorted themselves out and he is now a normal (if there is such a thing) three year old.

Although this was not someone directly judging my parenting skills it was still someone feeling they had the right to judge my son's development. Perhaps she even was judging my parenting skills, perhaps she thought I did not talk to DS or I didn't let him speak for himself.

I do not wish to come over as if I am blinkered to the fact that there are abusive parents out there and I do recoil in horror to hear a parent swearing at a child or losing control with smacking or shouting and perhaps some of these parents do come under the category of abusive parents but others could be loving parents having the worst day ever and I think from most of our postings it can be seen that it happens to parents who are not in the least abusive.

So please don't judge by what you see in a few seconds, of course if anyone has real evidence of abuse they should not hesitate in contacting the NSPCC, but otherwise perhaps the poor parent needs some sympathy rather than judgemental looks and tut-tutting!

KS, she was still being judgemental in a way similar to anyone who may say either inside or to a mother's face that they should be doing this or that or not doing this or that with their child in particular circumstances. I now look back on the whole event and think it was all an over-reaction by the medical profession but it didn't change the fact that that woman expressed her views about my child in the same way we could form views about other parents rightly or wrongly. I just don't think it should be done on the basis of a few seconds.

Just to add a further thought. How do we know when we see a child having a hairy canary about something and a mother ignoring them that the child does not have some sort of learning or behavioural difficulty and cannot be reasoned with or talked to to bring them round. Perhaps the mother's only defence mechanism is to ignore the child until they settle down again?

Yes, demented, that's a good point and I don't think you have to have children with special problems to feel like this. On some occasions, when my sons are having a major wobbly, I have had to detach myself from the situation and ignore them, simply to keep sane.

I have been thinking about this discussion a lot. I don't think it is fair to judge a parent on a fleeting moment (unless the child is subjected to violence or physical risk), but, I agree with others here who say that some children out there are having a consistently awful time at the hands of their parents, and yes, we should probably intervene more.

I can look back at my son's friends and acquaintances over the last five years and think of at least three or four children who seemed neglected or worse. In cases were I intervened, it was to offer a meal, a few hours invitation home, a visit to the park, ie temporary measures, a sticking plaster. In only one instance did I think of tackling the mother or the authorities, and that was only because I knew the mother closely and so could be sure things weren't right.

IME it's much easier to intervene at child level than at parent level. These children were school age, and I hoped that the school would pick up on their problems. Is that a naive hope? Failing that, I hoped a relative or friend would talk to the parent.

The only thing I felt I could do was to offer the child friendship and keep those invitations coming. Anyone can judge a parent, it's what you do afterwards that's the hard part.

KS, I didn't take your comments as unsupportive at all. The situation just made me realise how people can get the wrong idea.

sml - i have to apologise i think i may have taken your comments a little bit too much to heart, had had a very hard day with dd and thanx to everyone else who gave word of support. Anyway good news dd has suddenly turned into the perfect little angel - perhaps she reads this! Anyway my point really was that very often me fussing over her or carrying her just made her worse but i always try to calm her. Obviously we are talking about mums that dont. I agree that there are mums and dads who treat there childen very badly but i also think that being a mum is a job with a complete lack of training. We are taught how to drive a car, shown the ropes at a new job but handed our babies and expected to get on with it. I know there is a lot of information and support out there but how many mothers are struggling and their children suffering because they don't know how to get it or are too frightened to ask for it? Where would we all be if it wasnt for mumsnet!!!!

ames - thank you, but think nothing of it. One bends over backwards to generalise, but still knows that any strongly worded opinion is bound to offend someone....I am happy to hear that your dd is better now. I agree with you entirely about the lack of training for motherhood. My own all girls school was dead into A levels, university etc - I don't remember hearing it ever mentioned once by anybody that any of us might get married or have children! One thing that has really come out from this thread is how little confidence many people have in their parenting skills. Yet they are probably perfectly capable of doing a demanding job outside the home, taking out a mortgage or any other challenge.

One thing that has suddenly occured to me, in particular about a toddler having a screaming tamtrum in the supermarket. I have such a girl, although she's now 3 I can't actually think of a day out (including the zoo, supermarket, shopping, beach etc etc) that she hasn't had a heel kicking, slap mummy, lie on the floor tamtrum. Now one of the ways that all the good books suggest (if you have tried distraction) is to ignore that tamtrum. Easy in your own home when no-one is looking, you can do all sorts of things including the naughty step, shut in room, time out etc. However simply turning the back is also suggested. So this is what I do. Now I don't give a damn if my screaming child is upsetting anyone else (I am soooooo sorry), but I am trying very hard to count to ten, take a deep breath and not to look too embarrassed. So there is me, evil ignoring mother, make up (SML!! ) doing my damndest to keep my cool.

What's the alternative, I have fed her fruit, biscuits, juice, ham, bread (if it moves open it!), I have sung, talked to her, given her a piggy back after promises to walk etc etc. Reasoning doesn't often work as she goes from calm angel to child devil in the space of a second and reasing is not in tthe book. How do you reason with a child you is screaming for more than an hour that you wiped her bum, instead of letting her do it??, or another good one today I 'helped' her cut a piece of cheese after she asked me to help, it all got thrown across the room.

Please help!!!

Ok, me again! I feel that we are missing the point here...surely what matters is what your children think, not other people making judgements. I couldn't care less what judgements other people are making, so long as I feel I'm doing the right thing by my children.

I still feel, however that ignoring kids is damaging. I feel that being ignored (even though I'm sure my parents weren't aware they were doing it) is part of what caused my self-esteem issues.

On the other hand, Crunchie, I think ignoring a TANTRUM is a different thing entirely, and, IMHO,CAN BE one of the best ways of dealing with it. I don't think this is what anyone is objecting to, and I think my views, and those of Fionn (dare I suggest) have been misunderstood and misinterpreted

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the "jokes" thread so I thought I'd do both I thought it might lighten the mood...

Here goes...

A man observed a woman in the supermarket with a 3-year-old girl in her trolley.

As they went down the biscuit aisle, the little girl asked for some and her mother told her no. The little girl immediately began to make a fuss, and the mother said quietly "Now, Monica, we jusy have half of the aisles left to get through. Don't be upset, it won't be long."

Soon they came to the sweets section and the little girl began to shout for some. When told she couldn't have any, she began to cry. The mother said softly, "There, there, Monica, don't cry - only two more aisles to go and then we'll be at the checkout."

When they got to the till the little girl immediately began to clamour for chewing gum and had a terrible tantrum on discovering that there's be no gum purchased. The mother said patiently, "Monica, we'll be through this checkout in five minutes and then you can go home and have a nice nap."

The man followed them out to the car-park and stopped the woman to compliment her. "I couldn't help noticing how patient you were with little Monica..." he began

The mother sighed and said "My little girl is called Jane - I'm Monica."