Mothers ignoring their children

[Fionn]

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

Enid
I've many times gone round the supermarket with a baby tucked under my arm, pushing the trolley with the other hand, as I imagine loads of other mums here have done as well. Sometimes also hissing "come here and stay by me" at a pair of toddlers as well.
Other options (not always available) are to go away and come back later, leave baby with partner/mum or simply ask a shop assistant to come round with you and help you do your shopping.

No, sorry, as far as people in the supermarket go I don't actually care what they think! When I go to Sainsburys I care about a) dd and b)me. If I started to worry about what everyone was thinking everytime dd had a tantrum in the supermarket I'd be on valium by now. She did throw a massive wobbly in the library the other day and I picked her up and took her out - that's the library, its supposed to be a quiet, calm place. And I probably would placate her with crisps in the supermarket too if she showed no signs of calming down. But I have seen mums with crying babies in Sainsburys and I always try to look sympathetic rather than cross, as I know from experience that there is very little you can do, rather than drop everything and leave, and quite honestly, why should they?

It depends on how you look at things... and you should respect other people's ways Sister and all !
Running around a supermarket with a tiny baby is something I would never do and have never done... but I have a DH who went to the shops for me (that is not the case for everyone)... so I don't judge mums who are still doing their shopping at 9PM with a crying baby because maybe they don't have any other choice that day...
When my baby was 3 weeks old he would cry for 3 hours straight in MY arms... there was nothing I could do... lucky us it didn't last for more than a few days but what would people have said if I had been out shopping with a screaming baby... who was screaming regardless....

Why can't women be more supportive and tolerant .... and then we all say "aren't women b....y but I AM NOT!!!" - please ! The hypocracy !

Enid, if dd is having a tantrum then I assume you are talking about a toddler not a baby. Babies should not be ignored anywhere as you don't know if they are in pain or hungry and ignoring their crying is being very selfish.
I childs tantrum is something different, surely you must agree??

Well, I know what you are getting at Sister, but dd just didn't like the supermarket from a young age. Even though she was in a sling (about 2 months of age), she'd yell her head off - just didn't like being in the place and I can't blame her. Sometimes MIL or dp would do the shopping but that wasn't always possible. So I just used to dash round as quickly as possible, trying to stay calm-ish so as not to upset her even more.

I must say it never occurred to me that people might have thought I was wrong to do this, I suppose I just assumed that mums understand...and that you do what you can to get through the day. IMO, anyone that goes to the supermarket to get peace and quiet needs to get out more!!

(Can I just add that dd is quite often as good as gold in the supermarket and not a complete nightmare all the time!! )

Fair enough Enid. I experienced a mum doing a weeks shop with her small baby in the trolley, the baby was screaming and being totally ignored. Not once picked up. The mum might of instinctly known the baby was unhappy because he/she was bored but for everyone is in the shop it was very distressing to hear a baby crying and being totally ignored. It was as if the mum didn't even hear the child.

Fionn you really started something with this debate. I really don't think too much emphasis should be put on 'considering others' - for heaven's sake if you try to keep everyone else happy all the time, you're going to add a whole lot more stress to your own life. I don't think Enid's being inconsiderate, just realistic. I must admit that if I was the woman in the supermarket with the crying baby, I would just grab what I really needed and get out of there as soon as possible, but certainly not because I was inconveniencing anybody else with my crying baby. I would be leaving for the baby's sake and because I would find it stressful and upsetting with my baby crying. Some babies cry a lot more than others, and some mothers can tolerate it a lot more than others. There are just too many factors involved to make a proper judgment a lot of the time!

Liamsmum, so if you think that you should not consider other peoples feelings then you disagree with SMLs posting at 1:38????

thank goodness for internet shopping!

Exactly bossykate! When no 2 arrives in Oct I'll be availing myself of that service regularly no doubt!!

Well, this is an interesting debate! I agree with whoever said that they don't care if the noise is bothering other people: if we all constantly considered that with our children we'd rarely leave the house, let alone get the shopping done. If other people don't like it, too bad, I say, it's a public place and children do make a racket sometimes.

I remember going to the shops when ds was very small: I'd always leave a shop IMMEDIATELY he started crying. I'd leg it home or to a mother and baby room to find out what was wrong and wonder later why I hadn't got anything done that day. Looking back, I don't know what I was thinking of - I suppose I remembered being childless and how annoying the noise was for me then. I was also embarrassed.

And then one day I saw a woman with a crying baby in the queue at Boots and she CARRIED ON WITH HER SHOPPING and paid calmly! It wasn't ages, about 3 minutes. I realised then, that although I did need to respond to my baby's needs and distress, I didn't need to leave the shop the minute the noise started. It was liberating, I relaxed a little and ocassionally bought some groceries.

I also agree that we should be tolerant and not judge on the basis of seeing a fragment of another mothers life. I have been that woman screaming sometimes, he has heard some choice language in the car (thanks for your stories scummy, made me laugh) and I have been guilty of answering the phone or trying to have a brief adult conversation. And I am NOT a bad mother, I have finally convinced myself of that!

OK, ignoring your child/ren all the time is wrong, but when you HAVE to get something done, then sometimes it's unrealistic to respond immediately. I don't believe they'll suffer from that. And for older children, I'd agree that they need to have time to play on their own and they need to know that other people have conversational needs too.

Yes, it is an interesting debate - glad you started it, Fionn.

I think sml raised a good point, and one that hadn't occurred to me before: The noise a crying baby makes is more than irritating for other adults to listen to. It could also be very upsetting if they have, for instance, recently lost a baby. For the latter reason alone (certainly not the former) I will now think twice about of inflicting the noise of my crying toddler on supermarket shoppers.

To lighten the debate (or maybe not!) I thought I should tell you what happened to me and DD this morning.
I was working from home and when that happens DH takes both kids out to go buy organic vegetables and see the animals at a farm...this is usually a 2 hour expedition.
So this AM they left when I had already started a conference call so I didn't see them leave.... I worked and worked... and then they came back, prepared lunch, etc... at which point I went to see them and asked my oldest if they had shown DD the new lambs.... DS looked at me funny and DH said "Well that explains it !!!"
Still none the wiser.... I asked what are they looking at me for... well they had left DD at home while they went to the farm. They had left at 9AM (which is when she goes for a nap).... and when they came back at 11 AM... (I was in my office on the phone) - she was still asleep in bed !!!
If she had cried I would have heard her.... but I cannot believe I didn't know she was in the house all this time....Is this ignoring my kids ?

pupuce - lovely story!

How I agree with www. My dd (nearly a year now), spent a good portion of her babyhood crying, just because thats the way she was. I was, like www, initially really worried about this in public, but after months of constantly weighing up if I could just quickly stick some brocolli in a bag, or should try again to console dd, just found it too much. I would seriously have been tied to the house if I had taken into account those views expressed by sml and sister, and although acutely aware of such thoughts, had to try shopping with a crying baby - perversely for my own sanity.
I'm afraid the thought that someone may have lost their baby etc did not cross my mind - and I'm glad it didn't - that would have been one more worry. We could spend our lives worrying about crying babies beacause that woman may have lost a baby, or shouting children because that woman may have lost a child, but it acheives nothing. Dd gradually cried less, got more used to trips out like that, and is now fine. Agree also with points made by Liamsmum and Enid, who doesn't sound at all inconsiderate.
More and more I feel society places expectations on mothers. Every time I didn't fulfill a role I knew another expected of me (i.e. letting dd cry in public), the looks and tuts of others were enough to make me feel terrible - something I really did not deserve
The bottom line to me was, I spent months in angst, doing nothing but considering the views of others, and suffering as a result.

I have to say Fionn's message struck a chord with me. I was on the bus recently and I saw a mother with a child of about four. The child was extremely quiet and still and good. Then it suddenly saw something out of the window and said, very happily and excitedly, 'Mummy, what's that?', and she just turned round and said, really nastily, 'shut up you'. And the kid went completely quiet. I felt very, very sad and just wanted to hug the kid. Also, on a train (a three hour journey, by the way) I saw another toddler, who was playing very nicely and cuddling his mum, but his dad completely ignored him, except if the child made a noise above a whisper, he occasionally looked up to point at the child, say something threatening like 'shut up or you'll get hit' and then went back to ignoring him. He was horrible! The kid's mum looked terribly embarrassed by it. I heard another another older child say 'what a mean daddy'.I think there is a difference between trying to get on with your own life in trying circumstances and this kind of downright nasty behaviour. I myself have lost my temper with my son at times - I know nobody's a perfect parent, but I do think children deserve better than continual contempt. I recently read Andrea Ashworth's book As Is From A House On Fire, about a terrible childhood in an abusive home which is very moving. It shows that a cruel, ignoring and over-controlling parent may well be a violent one at home. I am also thinking of that poor little girl who was beaten to death by her stepmother, yet everyone decided to 'mind their own business' when they saw her being cruelly ignored and humiliated in public - I wonder, what do the people who think that all mothers deserve support and you shouldn't judge anyone think of that?. Some parents do deserve our condemnation, and I don't think you have to be a perfect mother to say that. I do recommend the book, BTW.

Oh god, what a debate! I think I am a considerate person, I worry too much what people think of me, think I probably try to please people when I should say 'bog off' but I have never thought when my baby was crying that someone may have lost a baby the previous day so I must therefore stop my baby crying. Good God, we shouldn't even leave the house then because if we even show that unknown somebody a baby then surely they will get upset. You simply cannot think of everyone else in this world. I had a baby who didn't actually cry too much and I know I did panic in the supermarket when she did but she was often in a sling so a stupid dance around the aisle would often work but if it didn't I certainly didn't stop everything and dash out to see to her needs.
When my daughter was born I had no support network as such, no family within 4 hours, I had recently returned to the UK and fell pregnant so hadn't had a chance to make close friends I could leave mine with when I needed to go shopping, I simply had to get on with it so that we could eat that night/week. I think when people have their first baby they are often in this situation, often afraid to leave them anyway, what if they needed breastfeeding, etc, so lots of mothers are probably in this situation and simply just need to get on with it.
Sister, I find it hard to believe you followed that mother around the whole supermarket for 20 minutes whilst her baby cried. If you did, why didn't you go and offer a note of sympathy instead of just judging her as a bad mother, she may have been up all night and just about to lose her sanity unless she switched off.
Grrrrrrrr, I am so p**d off with the constant guilt everyone tries to sling on mothers when most of us are more than capable of having a nagging sense of guilt on our own!!!

Aloha, during my entire childhood my mother was the model parent in public, but once we were home she became a sick, sadistic abuser. As I and others have said, it is impossible to accurately judge others' situations from witnessing a mere snapshot.

Because I survived that childhood and am a reasonably successful and happy adult I am able to see that actually people grow up experiencing terrible things and still go on to be OK. Perhaps if you grew up in a very safe, secure, and loving environment it seems much more upsetting to witness 'poorer' parenting?

Fionn, i feel that you are judging these mothers from one individual occasion. I dont think you should assume these parents are inadequate or others that you might see. Maybe their child has been driving them crazy all day long and they need a liitle ignoring. I have 3 and they can drive me insane on some shopping days. Does that mean I am a bad parent if I dont stop instantly from what I am doing. I dont think so. I have also had to paddle my 9 yr old because a little sassing got a little out of hand. At home when they have bugged me for everything under the sun or they have fought like cats and dogs sure I need time away from them. Who wouldnt. I dont agree with the swearing at your children although accidents can happen. How do you know this mothers 3 year old wasnt bugging her since the time she woke up. Kids cant have your total attention ever second of the day. I dont want to sound rude because im usually not but you sound as if you think you are a perfect parent and believe me God did not make any such thing. I just think these examples of incidences are minor. I sometimes ignore my children and sometimes feel the need to paddle and sometimes I get busy on the phone or when trying to shop for things but I will say I feel like a wonderful parent and I love my kids more then anything or anyone.

Ok so maybe I am a terrible mother, but they are children for such a short time these days, and I beleive they SHOULD be the centre of the universe. I don't claim to be a perfect mother, but I try to respond as far as possible to my chilren's needs, and my 3 year old is hungry for knowledge - should I deny him that?

I read the article Thewiseone - it's a very different worls that these children are growing up in, and just because it works for them doesn't mean that it's the right way for everyone.

I don't expect obedience from my children, I want my kids to grow up with a love and desire for learning and understanding. They are like sponges at this age and the amount of information they absorb is incredible - my son new his alphabet and could count to 100 at the age of 2 1/2. He can recognise routes in the car which he's only travelled a couple of times, he can identify trees and flowers - because he is talked to, and has his questions answered. He is stimulated and therefore he has a good general knowledge - this means that he is a pleasure to spend time with and have a conversation with.

threeangels, Maybe you haven't read my follow-up remarks but I repeat that I am not claiming to be a perfect parent! I get annoyed with my sons and raise my voice like any other mother. My objection is to the kind of nasty, bullying parenting described in the examples Aloha gave. I agree with you totally Aloha - no excuse should be made for parents who humiliate and mistreat children. Surely fewer children would suffer in silence if as a society we did feel that it was acceptable to publicly object to such behaviour as Aloha descibes. I bet people do it more when they see an animal mistreated.

Fionne I do apologize if i sounded rude. I did not read your comment about not being 100% perfect. The ignoring the child situation just seemed a little minor to accuse a parent of bad parenting. I do not feel children should be screamed at for no reason or smacked. I just know that I have been stressed many times in stores by my children. Ive also had to yell at my children to some level. But I will admit now that im thinking about it that i have seem on occasion a parent mistreating their child for no reason (at that time). You just never know if they have been having a bad day with them before that.

To add to my comments below, I AGREE that children don't need stimulation all the time - I am very proud of the fact that my son can play happily by himself.

In the mornings he wakes early and goes and plays by himself until mummy wakes up. But once i'm up, i do my utmost to make sure I respond to his needs as much as possible.

Babies have to put their total trust in us, and without us, they wouldn't survive. How terrifying must it be for them to be left to cry? It must
make them feel so totally alone and vulnerable.

This is very different from a toddler tantrum but the original thread wasn't about tantrums it was about parents not responding to a child asking questions or asking calmly for attention.

I just sometimes wonder why people HAVE children...

As someone said earlier, no parent is perfect.

My son is only 8 months old and yes, I've been driven nuts by him sometimes, but I don't shout at him or swear. I just pass him to hubby and go and have a bath or something, lol!

But as I mentioned earlier, I used to be very judgemental about other peoples parenting practices until I had my son, even from little things like babies with dummies (until I found out how useful they can be for an overtired baby).

But I also have a nephew of 2.5 and he is into screaming, kicking and biting.

My sister loses her rag with him a lot more now and can end up raising her voice, just as her partner can.

Actually she said to me this morning 'He used to be such a good baby' and I think she made a good point.

Babies change into toddlers. As we all know, toddlers are hungry for knowledege and can therefore be quite demanding. But they are also learning to assert themselves, so yes they will drive parents nuts.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that most people have children with the best intentions, not fully understanding that these are little humans who will constantly change and sometimes the results of those changes can be too much at times.

There, I'll shut up now!

Jenny2998

What I forgot to mention before is that, I agree that children should not be ignored for asking questions or told to shut up when they may be pointing something interesting out to Mummy.

But I remember when my niece was about 2 and she kept saying 'What's that?' to everthing and after naming about 20 objects, I had to say (in a calm and jolly manner 'Let's play this again later' because it was beggining to annoy me.

So, it's probably not that fact that their questions are not answered but how a parent deals with constant questions that they do not really want to answer at the time.

Really will shut up now!