Mothers ignoring their children

[Fionn]

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

I think Fionn has a point. I've several times been very distressed in Sainsburys recently as a mother wanders round with a howling baby, which she calmly ignores as she continues unconcernedly doing her shopping. Each time, I have looked for evidence of the wild eyed and desparate mother at the end of her tether, which I can totally sympathise with, but this is not the case at all. In all of the cases I am referring to (there have been three recently) the mothers have been well dressed, wearing makeup, in no particular hurry judging by their body language and accompanied by only one child. It is obvious to me that the child would stop howling if they only gave it some attention, but they choose instead to inflict its sufferings on other shoppers. They usually seem to give the child some attention when they get to the checkout, whereupon it stops crying of course. These mothers were the sort of middle class, well to do (judging by their shopping) people who would not see themselves as candidates for a parenting class at all. If anyone here is guilty of this behaviour, then I'd say this to them: obviously you've thought it through and decided that ignoring your child while s/he cries is not bad parenting, and that's your choice; I am not condemning you. But please remember that when you do this in the supermarket, you are causing no small amount of distress to other mothers, some of whom may not be fortunate enough to be spending the day with their children as you are.

I think Fionn's right in feeling that these parents she has seen could do better, and she's only sounding off about something that's upset her, so I find some of the responses below rather surprisingly strong.
I know I've ignored my children at times when they are whining for my attention, but many times, I've swallowed my annoyance, and forced myself to say "what is it darling?" even though I felt at the end of my tether a moment ago. We shouldn't justify ignoring our children, any more than we should condemn it. Instead, we should keep reminding ourselves of where we could have done better, so we can scrape together the will power to do better next time.

Why dont' you all read that article I posted ???
Here is the link again :
www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

Please don't judge others unless you have evidence of maltreatment.... I really don't think it is appropriate - a mother ignoring her crying baby in a supermarket could also shout to tell him "Shut up"...I have seen that before- yes it is a bit sad to me but I have no idea what is going in this woman's life.

It takes all sorts to make a world... it would be very boring if we were all the same.

Thewiseone, this is interesting, didn't have time to read it last night. I think the sad thing about living in this 'civilised' country is the amount of rules and regulations we have to impose on our children. There are cars, child abductors, general nut cases on the loose, the fear of losing them in our concrete jungles of towns and cities, etc. Plus we generally don't live in the kind of communities where you could allow your young child to go with other children and let of steam. I feel I am offering my child a good childhood but no necessarily the one I would like him to have.

On the point of ignoring children screaming (not talking small baby but rather bad tempered toddler) I have been guilty of this also, I have felt at times it has been my only option. One time in particular my son was 18 months old and having a blinding tantrum in our local shopping centre. He was lying on the floor kicking and screaming, I asked him to get up and he wouldn't, I decided rather than reward the behaviour with attention I would just stand and ignore him until he was quite finished. I must have had about three people come up to me and say "what's wrong" and looking at me like I was a terrible mother. The worst thing in this sort of situation is someone who thinks they know best and goes to your child and starts to talk to them, showing them tons of attention, rewarding the behaviour and even worse putting their hand in their pocket and coming out with sweets, without even asking me if it's OK! Sometimes we can't see the whole situation and we don't know what has happened in the last few minutes.

Sorry if I am rambling again, didn't have enough sleep, woke up with DH's alarm at 6.30am, dozed off any to be woken by DS with a smelly nappy, asked DH to see to it only to be woken a few minutes later by the postman ringing the bell with a parcel! Anyway serves me right for not going to bed until 1am, but I couldn't sleep last night.

Sml, I am sorry I am that woman in the supermarket!

I can't tell you how many times when I am doing my shopping that my toddler has played up, and we are talking thrown herself on the floor kicking tantrums (and she's 3). So I am the guilty one who is forced to strap her in tight, ignore the screams and try to smile serenely.

If bad parenting is ignoring your toddler when out, how do you reconcile this with sleep control ie looking in on toddler every 5 mins, but still ignoring their wish to get out of their cot? ( I am not talking newborns)

I just wondered what your views were on this, Fionn. Do followers of Christopher Green need to be re-educated

sml, I was that mother in the supermarket yesterday! Serenely walking around, zoning out the screams of my 2 year old (she wanted to run around and not sit in the trolley - sorry, no time for that today). I even had make up on and was managing with skill to plan a nice supper for dp and I that evening to take the edge of the stressful day...it had never even crossed my mind that I might be judged negatively for remaining calm in a crisis! Oh dear, just remembered, I ended up giving her a packet of crisps so she'd calm down a bit.

hi wiseone

interesting article. how do you think it relates to the supermarket episode in terms of specific behaviours? it seems to suggest that the way to socialise toddlers is to include them in adult activities without fuss and with the expectation of their participation. so in the supermarket example, the mother would just carry on with the shopping regardless of the screams? just seeking to clarify, maybe i have missed jean liedloff's point...

No - you are right... the point I was trying to make is that in this society we (and I include myself in this) pay FAR too much attention to our children... we MUST talk to them when they are in their stroller, answer all of their questions, give them a choice for everything, ensure they are having fun,.... I thought her article was a good wake up call !!!

Great.... I can't believe it.... now some mothers are being condemned for wearing make-up and being well dressed. Sml, what they look like has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of parent they are. I agree with Sniksnak, you absolutely cannot judge someone when you don't know anything about them. Just because someone SEEMS calm and composed when their baby is crying, you don't know how they feel on the inside. What if she was wearing makeup and decent clothes because she'd just been to a job interview or a funeral or for some other good reason? Anyway whatever the reason it's her business. I totally agree with good parenting and loving your children, etc etc but everyone is different. How would you feel to be judged by someone who thinks they know all about you just by looking at you for a few seconds? I think it would be nice to give each other the benefit of the doubt when we don't know anything about each other's lives.

Interesting article, Thewiseone. I've always thought that a certain amount of "benign neglect" (after the basics have been sorted out of course- feed them, clean them, cuddle them, talk to them) is an appealing parenting style. I think the "paranoid hoverer" brigade of mums who never leave their kids to their own devices for a second and put their own needs well below their children's are at least as annoying/damaging as the ignorers.

Here are some of my favourite childhood memories:

*An afternoon of dancing about (aged 5 or so, perhaps?), squabbling with my sister and climbing all over my mum while she napped by the gas fire, occasionally mumbling "Stop fighting, kids" or "Are you ok?" or "Get off me. I'm asleep"

*Watching (in vaguely horrified delight) my parents having a row in which my Mum poked my Dad in the bum with a fork and he retaliated in fury by grabbing a whole freshly roasted chicken from the table and taking a big bite out of it when they were expecting guests for dinner.

*Arguing- I'm talking genuine, heated arguing here!- with my Dad about who got to read MY Bunty comic first.

*My mum swearing in the car. I learned all my best words from her in the car, though out of the car she didn't swear at all and, indeed, did not like us to do so. Her face was always good for a laugh when we answered her despairing "Where do you pick up such language?" with "From you! In the car!"

Perfect parenting? Constant supervision? Child centredness 100% of the time? I think these would would lead to some very dull childhoods! As a child I'd rather have eavesdropped on my Mum's (fascinating) phone conversations than participate in a duty conversation about flowers and trees, any day of the week.

Thewiseone, I've come a bit late to the debate, but thanks for a fascinating and pertinent article.
I'm a great people-watcher and as guilty as any of making judgements based on a very quick view - but I do make a big effort to disregard them and keep an open mind because I know that they are subjective and unhelpful.
Shortly after we moved house I had a real PIG of a day with ds, he would have been about 15 months and was really acting up. I had a houseful of unpacking to do, no working phone, etc.
After what seemed like hours of listening to him yowl and fuss, we agreed we'd go to the park. To my shame, as we crashed our way out of the house, dressed in whatever clothes we'd managed to unearth, I said, fairly loudly, "And if you don't cheer up, I'll strangle you."
What would Fionn have thought of me if she had been passing our front gate? It was one of my lowest points as a parent, and is not representative of our happy home life at all. The woman who WAS passing my gate gave me a look of utter disgust.

Scummymummy, you do make me laugh - and remember watching my parents in horrified delight as my mother threw a very solid 60s vacuum cleaner down the stairs at my father because he was sloping off to do the shopping while she got to stay home with us (again). She also swore her head off at him, and now denies the scene ever took place.
Our holidays were also not remotely child-centred in the traditional sense. Beaches? Sunshine? No, any five and three year old can march up Catbells and Castle Crag in the drizzle, while lucky mum tries to cook a family supper on a single calor gas burner in a tiny, stinky caravan.

That is an interesting article, TheWiseone. I'm all in favour of 'benign neglect', too, Scummymummy. But at the same time as neglecting our family, we tote them along as often as possible, DH taking them to work on the rare occasion when circumstances permitted and they've always come with us when we do our favourite things, like museums and art galleries. They rarely ever complained, probably becuase they didn't know any different!

The whole issue of parenting is big news atm, isn't it, with T Blair threatening to take away Child Benefit from parents of misbehaving children and so on. What are Mumsnetters views on that idea and what else could be done to stop these children from falling to the wayside of society?

Thewiseone, just read the article and it is very interesting. I have a real bossy-boots 2.5 year old ds and he is forever trying to control me! Thats definitely given me some things to think about. With regards to tanrumming toddlers in supermarkets, we've all been there ( or will at some point) and I tend to just give a sympathetic smile to the mum. I would never judge a mum on stuff like that, its pointless, god only knows what the situation is. However, my mum recently felt she had to say something to a mum who was at a tumble-tots type thing. She was chatting away with her friends, completely ingnoring her 5ish months old baby. He was desperately upset and wanting her attention. My mother, after watching this for some time, went over and said 'sorry, but I think your baby is wanting you' and the mother replied ' I'm teaching him a lesson-he can't always get what he wants'. She then picked him up and faced him away from her and carried on her conversation. My mother was so upset but did notice that the woman, a few minutes later, put her baby on her lap. So she felt that it was worth saying something after all. She proceeded to get filthy looks for the rest of the session from the mum. What do others think about that? I know that I would'nt have said anything.

I've been thinking about this since last night. I had to put a video on for my 21 month old this morning as I tried to doze on the sofa after he woke at 5.40am, having been up far too late debating this issue! That's not the kind of ignoring I'm talking about, nor is having a chat on the mobile while the kids play in the park, or asking a child to be quiet for a moment or ignoring a toddler's tantrum in the supermarket. I really am not criticising the average mother and I do feel that mothers are undervalued by our society. I don't think that we should always put our children first by any means but I think too many parents put their children last too often. And I doubt any Mumsnet members are really guilty of that or you wouldn't all be investing the time to discuss these issues.
I also think there's a lot of middle-class guilt out there - I think it's political correctness gone too far to say that we should never criticise other mothers. I know these are extreme cases, but remember the NSPCC statistic that 1-2 children are killed in the UK every week by their parent/carer. Maybe a few of these lives would be saved if early warning signs were spotted and people were a bit less laissez-faire. Of course I'm not saying that every mother who shouts at her child is guilty of abuse or neglect, but sadly, in a minority of cases, that is the reality.
Incidentally, my partner often accuses me of being too judgemental and dogmatic so those of you who think so are not alone! And I'm not part of the Tory moral majority, I'm an unmarried Labour voter who just gets depressed every time I go into our local town and see mothers and fathers who obviously (and in the cases I'm talking about I think it is obvious, even if it's just a minute of their behaviour that I'm witnessing!) undervalue their children.
Some of the responses have made me think though, so thank you for that. Now I'm off to The Forsyte Saga page!
PS thanks sml, I don't feel quite so villified now!

I must admit that I saw the original posting yesterday before anyone else had responded and I was wary of replying because I haven't been on this site long and did not know what reaction Iwould get.

Phew, am I glad I've read the whole long list of responses, because I go with the majority.

Thanks Mumsnetters for not making us 'non-100%' mothers feel guilty about being human!

I used to judge before my sister had her son. When she had him, my attitude changed because I could se what damn hard work it was to be a mother. Then I had my son 8 months ago and I can clarify that it is still bloody hard work!!

My mum, however, has very a very selctive memory, lol!!

Excuse the dodgy typing - at work at the mo and shouldn't really be posting notes on Mumsnet!

Can I just make it clear that I was talking about babies, that is children who are not yet walking or talking? I am the first person to sympathise with a parent out with a wilful toddler who knows exactly what they want to do, and it isn't shopping today, thank you v much mummy...in this situation one has to use any (reasonable) tactic that works.

What really causes me distress is the parents who insist on inflicting their let-the-baby-cry parenting style of small babies on others, and I stand by the point I made: if your child is causing a loud noise that is distressing to others in a public place, the primary objective is to stop this noise. It is not to pursue some theory that neglecting your baby is best for their own good.
The latest mother I saw let her baby scream ALL the way round the supermarket while she calmly did her shopping in no particular hurry, apparently unaware that she was causing distress to others. I was in there for around 20 minutes, the baby was howling the whole time. Sorry, but I don't think this was acceptable behaviour on the part of the mother.
Put it another way: if you are that mother who deliberately leaves her baby to cry in public, what do you know about the lives of the people around you? That woman next to you might have just lost custody of her child after a divorce; the one behind you in the queue might have had a baby that died, and find your baby's cries heartrending. Or the man just near you might have been up all night with a collicky baby and find your baby's crying the last straw.
It is generally considered good manners in the UK to impose your life and your affairs as little as possible on strangers around you in public places, and ordinarily crying babies which can be silenced with a cuddle are no exception.

Monnie, the point is not surely about being perfect or not. It's about knowing when you're not perfect, and making sure that you try to do better next time, rather than simply justifying yourself and carrying on.

sml, I totally agree. I had the same experience in a supermarket and the baby that was crying sounded REALLY upset but was being ignored. In the end a shop assistant asked if she could hold the baby for the mother. I don't care why she left the baby to cry in my opinion a small baby should NEVER be left to cry like that.
If my 2 and 3 year olds are crying because they have been told off then they can go to their rooms and cry for as long as they like but even now I would not let them do it in public for the sake of everyone else.

But what was she supposed to do (mother in supermarket)? Stop shopping and run outside and feed her baby? Yes, she could have picked him up and cuddled him, but he probably would have started again as soon as she put him down. I agree it is distressing to hear a sad baby crying its head off but I'd like to hear a bit of constructive critiscm, not a lot of virtual tutting please!

Enid, I'm not tutting, and you sound a bit inconsiderate to me. Yes if a small baby is REALLY crying then you should deal with that even if it means doing the shopping later.
The sound of a distressed small baby is very distressing to other people and should not be ignored. Don't you think other people should be considered??

Yeah but we can hardly go up to these parents and say "Hey, I think that you yelling at your child like that is wrong". IMO what you were talking about earlier, mother's ignoring their children or putting dummies in their mouths to shut them up does not constitute abuse. We've had this conversation before on smacking and there is a fine line to be drawn between discipline and abuse and I think it is the same here. When do you say that one parent's method of parenting becomes abuse? And what do you do about it?

A while ago I reported my neighbour as I got concerned for her little girl. I would hear these screaming arguments, the mum and dad would shout and swear at the little girl, she would shout and swear back, often I would hear her sobbing and throwing her stuff around in anger. Sometimes in the middle of the night I could hear her crying and screaming.

Now I have got to know my neighbour at bit better I can understand what is going on. The little girl has ADD and will often come home from school, rant and scream obscenitites at her mother and then hurl herself on her bed sobbing. This wasn't anything the mother had done, the girl just found it hard to cope with school and took her frustrations out at home. The parents are to blame too, her dad often loses patience with her and swears at her, and they are a loud family whose discipline is to yell at their kids. The mother also doesn't give the little girl much attention, but I can see that the little girl is a handful and I don't think I would cope very well with her. Her mother often locks herself in the caravan at the bottom of the garden to get away from her. But I am now satisifed that no abuse is going on, the mum is just trying to cope best she can with a difficult situation. Ok, her way may not be perfect and it may not be my way of coping, but she is doing her best and that's all that can be asked of her.

I don't know what point I am trying to make here, just that it is difficult to make judgements on the information to hand as often the information you have can lead to false conclusions. None of us are social workers and though it is right that we should look out for children, we should also think twice before jumping to conclusions and perhaps get to know that mother who screams or ignores her kids, you might find a very different story.