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Mothers ignoring their children

178 replies

Fionn · 02/05/2002 20:14

Have to get this off my chest! It seems that whenever I make the shortest shopping trip I see at least one mother shout/swear at, hit or just ignore their child/children. This morning in M&S a boy who was probably about 3 was trying to get his mother's attention but she was too busy discussing clothes with her friend so ordered him to stay in his pushcahir and gave him a dummy to shut him up. I felt like shouting at her "Listen to your child, it's the most important thing!" I get so depressed by these examples of really bad parenting that I witness virtually every day. Shouldn't there be some sort of compulsory "training" for mothers and fathers with young children that presumably had poor parenting experiences when they were kids themselves so just perpetuate the problem? Aside from the pity you have to feel for any undervalued child the social consequences affect society as a whole; children who aren't made to feel loved and valued are far more likely to turn to drugs/crime and be inadequate parents themselves. I look at some of these mothers who don't even have a smile for their child and want to ask them why they bothered having children in the first place. This is something that really upsets and concerns me. Any thoughts anyone?

OP posts:
KMG · 04/05/2002 17:39

I read this board last night, and was amazed how it (adversely) affected me today when I was out and about with the boys (2 and 4). As mothers we have enough to deal with getting everyone back home safely with no blood spilt ;-) without worrying about what judgements others are making of our parenting. Before I had children, and when I only had one very young one, I used to make snap judgements too, often on the basis of a 10 second glimpse into their lives.

I think I do a pretty good job as a mum. Yes, my children are very bright and absorb information like sponges, but they also talk and ask questions pretty constantly, and it can be extremely wearing ... if you get the wrong ten seconds you might think I'm a pretty dreadful mum. But, quite frankly, I don't care what you, or anyone else think, I know different.

jenny2998 · 04/05/2002 20:36

I've been thinking about this a lot since last night.

If I'm talking to someone and my son demands attention I won't neccessarily abandon the conversation, but I will ask him to wait - it's a common courtesy.

My children and I spend time in companionable silence,I'm not suggesting that you need to be talking to them all the time. But if an adult approached you while you were talking to someone else, you wouldn't just ignore them - surely our children deserve to be treated with the same respect.

Kids deserve to have their needs met and it's our duty as parents to see that they do

ames · 04/05/2002 23:14

I have to add to this and I'm sorry sml but I find many of your comments offensive. I have a baby that cries a lot and am possibly exactly the type of mum that annoys you so much but I can assure you that my baby is very, very much loved and cared for. In fact I find your comments quite hurtful because you seem to be saying that because I cannot stop my 3 month old baby crying in public that I am not considering other people and I am a terrible mother. My first pregnancy ended in a very traumatic miscariage yet I was never so twisted that I thought that every mother whos baby was crying was a bad one. Sometimes I have to ignore my baby crying (my baby is breastfed and wont take a dummy although I dont really want her to have one - it seems though that this would please you as long as she was quite)I have tried everything and I mean everything. Talking to her, feeding her, singing to her, carrying her - she very often fights my cuddles (she suffers from reflux)etc I have to do my shopping, I have to take her to the clinic and she cries, there is no in between - just very loud screaming and I defend her right to do so. I never lose my patience, I never leave her, she can always see me. However she is gaining weight, she is absolutly beautiful, and sleeps straight through the night. When she is happy she coos and aahs, smiles and giggles with the best of them and I'm sick of apoligising for her - I love her so much and she isn't a bad baby and I am not a bad mother. So if you see me apparantly ignoring her dont judge me, my calm face is for show it stops me breaking down and crying with her and a smile from you and some words of encouragement would be more than welcome or put you money were your mouth is and see if you can do any better. As other people have said what you are seeing is 5 minutes of my day I have fostered a 2 year old and have seen real neglect please dont tar me with that brush I don't deserve it. Sorry for rambling on but I had to get that off my chest.

tigermoth · 05/05/2002 07:59

Ames, your message reminded me of something I was going to add here earlier.

My oldest son was a very easy baby - lots of smiles, loved being out in public, cried less often than many, could easily be settled if he did. I was very, very lucky.

I used to get lots of compilmentary comments about this. Strangers would say what a happy baby he was and look at me approvingly. By implication they were complimenting me on my mothering abilty.

I remember one occasion when he was three months old and I took him for a check up at our doctors surgery. My son was gurgling away in his carry seat, smiling at everone as usual. The nurse, who know me well, and had seen me throughout my pregnancy, said she had been worried about how I would adapt to motherhood - she thought I'd have problems ( I must have seemed a really unmaternal pregnant woman )- but she now could see I was a really good mother because my baby was so contented.

Lovely to have this praise, but I felt it was unjustified. I knew I had an easy baby who responded well to other people. I really didn't have to do much apart from keeping him clean, rested and full of milk.

Two years on, if she had witessed the public scenes when my easy baby became a tempermental toddler, I wonder if she would have passed the same comment?

aloha · 05/05/2002 08:16

Dear Ames - I really don't think anyone is getting at you at all. You sound like a wonderful mother and a very good person. I pretty much always feel sympathy if I see someone with a crying baby in the supermarket (who hasn't been there?). I think this debate has got a bit misrepresented - I think (hope) Fionn is really talking about her feelings when she sees people who clearly don't care and are bullying and often just plain nasty - and I think that is probably more obvious in reality than it is when it's put down on paper (or typed online). I saw a very harrassed mother trying to pack up her stuff at Sainsbury's with a baby who was howling with hunger, but I could see immediately that she was trying to do things as quickly as possible to get to her child, and ten minutes later I saw her feeding him in the cafe. I never thought 'what a bad mother', I just thought, 'oh, no, how stressful for her'. However, I do see random examples of mental cruelty which upset me quite a bit. I often think, if they behave like this in public what can they be like in private? SnikSnak, I didn't have a particularly happy childhood (parents who were violent to each other etc). I have turned out OK too, but it's not something I want for my child, and I know you don't either. In the book Andrea Ashworth (another triumphant survivor of a terrible upbringing) writes about longing for someone -anyone - to intervene to get her out of her terrible situation, but everyone being too polite/minding their own business to help. That also struck a chord with me. The NSPCC, which I support, is spending a lot of money at the moment trying to say that it's OK to notice and report cruel parents. I wish they didn't exist and that all parents (of both sexes) were good enough, but some just aren't and I believe we do have to face up to it. Personally, I don't think it is harmful for us all to be a bit vigilant. On the parents bulling other parents thread on mumsnet someone saw a big bruise on a child's thigh, and the woman was reported - I think that was excellent.

AnnieMo · 05/05/2002 09:44

I too work with underpriviledged families and find the debate of 'good' and 'bad' parents fascinating. I see so many mothers who are bringing their children up under such pressure, some still manage to be 'good' mothers (although perhaps not to many mumsnetters standards) and yet some are so overwhelmed by poor housing, low income, poor role models, social envinronment that they cannot see beyond this. I do think that the ability to be a 'good' mother can so easily be seen as a class issue - although there are many exceptions to the rule.

jenny2998 · 05/05/2002 16:08

I really hope I am not coming over as being so very judgemental.

Like Tigermoth my first child was very easy, my second is very demanding, and cries a lot. But I never ignore her. Even when she's howling and and I have things to do, I still talk to her and reassure her.

I aspire to a very child-centred approach. I am very aware from my own experience how damaging careless remarks or even just a parent's disinterest can be. I had a great childhood, compared with the experience of many people I have encountered on here, but I still have very low self-esteem, because of my parents behaviour, which can also be crippling. Since becoming a parent myself I have become accutely aware of my parents' mistakes and am determined not to repeat them.

Maybe this is all coming across wrongly, but I guess it's like Aloha says, I just hate to think of any children suffering, whether it be physical or emotional pain

bluebear · 05/05/2002 19:02

Ames. I too, was upset by this thread and had decided not to post, but thought I should lend you my support. I also have a baby who spends a lot of time crying, I can feed, rock, cuddle, play, sing, and he still cries (he also had reflux so who knows how much discomfort that causes?)
Yesterday I had to take him to the supermarket, normally dh goes but he was ill, it's a bank holiday weekend and we needed food, baby milk etc.
As usual, 5 minutes into the shop, ds started to scream, I went through the usual routine, offering drinks, food, cuddles, singing ( I have no shame), playing peep-bo around the trolley but nothing would cheer him up for more than a few seconds. He simply hates shops. I ended up trying to carry him around and push the trolley with my belly whilst he continued to scream and fight me (although volume was slightly decreased compared to the screams if I tried to put him back into the trolley.)
So there you are, I'm a 'bad' mother too, exposing people to my screaming 9 month old ds. Depending on whether a passer-by saw me at the time I was singing 'Nelly the elephant' to him, or the time I was trying to put him back into the trolley before my arms gave out, they may consider me a mother-under-pressure or an evil witch.
At the end of the day only ds can judge whether I'm a good enough mother for him.

Crunchie · 05/05/2002 20:59

Maybe I'm the one who has lost the plot here, but I feel everyone is taking this thread too seriously. SML was, in my opinion, joking about what she saw. Or I took it as that, since I posted straight away. I think some people are putting forward opinions for discussionthey are not directly critising one anothers parenting styles.

Sometimes I am shocked by what I see in parents ignoring their screaming kids, and then whacking them. However I have been that parent with a screaming child having to threaten a smack (this is one of our chosen ways of disipline, so I don't want to start another row on this one). I also can get really p**sed off when I can hear a child sreaming for england and the parent doing nothing, again however I have been there.

I think what was meant by the original topic was that some parents seems to ignore or abuse their kids in public and that is really upsetting for everyone.

I hope that people are not taking things as personal slights on their parenting ability as I feel that this wasn't what was meant.

SofiaAmes · 06/05/2002 10:23

Wow! I just joined mumsnet...I've been hanging out in babycentre.co.uk where the discussions are no where near so interesting. I have to say, I agree with Ames (no relation as far as i know). Different children need different parenting and I try to give the parent the benefit of the doubt that they know what's right for their child and for themselves. I have a 18 month old, plus 3 step children (8,9 and 13) so I not only have to deal with my own parenting issues, but the aftermath of two other mothers' parenting ideas. In addition I have a husband who came from a terrible abusive childhood (he went into care at 12) and has no personal experience of what a good loving parent is like (though he is amazingly good at it anyway). When my step son cries in supermarkets I ignore him as this is the most effective method. When my oldest stepdaughter cries I lecture her (as she is usually trying to get me to buy something) and when my younger stepdaughter cries I console her (as it's almost never without cause). When my son cries I give him something to eat (as he generally only cries when hungry). In each case I am trying to be the best and most effective parent for the child and the situation. If someone else is bothered by this, then that is their problem. It's hard enough doing shopping (or anything else) with one or more children in tow. I know that I am doing the right thing for my children and frankly am surprised that anyone has time to start parenting other people's children as well as their own. There are a million right ways to bring up a child as long as love is there.
I have to add that I am American and have found that in general people in london are far less helpful/sympathetic/considerate of mothers and pregnant women than in the U.S. or Italy. And this makes everything that much harder here. oh well, I still love every minute of being a parent .
Sofia

Tigger2 · 06/05/2002 12:31

Well I must admit I don't fall into the "make-up and guid clothes" bracket, but do wear the wellies!!. My son since he has been able to vent his lungs at full capacity has been a complete horror in a supermarket not just Safeways any supermarket. He always howled whilst in the trolley, and now he is not in the trolley he puts things in the basket I don't want, and if I say no has a complete hoolie on the spot. So I must be one of these parents who just ignores their child, believe me there is nothing bloody worse than a screaming child and people looking and you and you know that most of them think that you are not paying your child enough attention. Hey easier said than done, you don't have to spend the whole day giving 100% to your children to be a good parent and running about after them explaining everything that is going on or everything that they look at and touch. I must admit those certain "people" who stand and stare in supermarkets or shops when a child is playing up really bug me to the point that I say to the mum or dad whoever has the child, "don't worry, we've all been there". There are no perfect parents or perfect children in this world, so I am afraid you'll just have to bite the bullet and put up with those of us whose children become little horrors in the shops, and it is nothing to do with the way that my children have been raised as they both know the correct behaviour when we are out. My daughter is great when in a shop, my son, well we shall avoid that subject, or could it be that it is a male thing!!

LiamsMum · 06/05/2002 12:44

Well said, Tigger....

Fionn · 06/05/2002 13:27

Aloha, yes you're right that I was expressing my feelings when I started this thread and I agree that reading my comments as people who don't know me what I said could me misinterpreted as overly judgemental. On reflection, and given that this is the first Mumsnet debate I've participated in, I could have expressed it better. But like Crunchie I am surprised by the number of Mumsnetters who view this discussion as an attack on individual parenting styles. Of course you can't judge every parent by viewing their behaviour in public, particularly when children are crying/having tantrums/being demanding, but I still maintain there are times (and last week was one of them)when I see a parent being unfairly and unnecessarily dismissive towards a calm child and that does really upset me and I don't feel guity about voicing my criticisms. The mother I saw was not at the end of her tether, she was calmly discussing clothes with her friend and didn't have a word to say to her son (who had been silent for a couple of minutes before he spoke) when he spoke to her other than an irritated "What?!" and put a dummy in.
The debate has been fascinating, particularly postings from AnnieMo and others who work with underpriveleged families. As for the class issue, there's another debate waiting to rage..!
We're off on a week's holiday to Austria, so no more from me for a few days!

OP posts:
ks · 06/05/2002 17:38

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robbie · 06/05/2002 19:22

The last thing I want to do is bring up the whole smacking debate but... I couldn't help but think of this thread when I was out and about this morning and saw a young boy being dragged across the road screaming by his mother (I presume). As he screamed she whacked him and told him to shut up, which brought more screams and so she whacked him (pretty much as hard as she could) again and so it went on until he got quite hysterical. He was eventually roughly picked up by one of the two other adults on hand (grandfather I presume) and carried away. I immediately thought of this discussion and everyone's very valid points about not knowing the cirmcusmstances, not being judgemental etc. But I also felt deeply miserable. Miserable for the boy (who I felt was being publicly humiliated and was learning that violence is acceptable) and for the mother (who could not have been enjoying herself) and miserable for us as a society because this is pretty much an accepted way of parenting our young. So yes I was standing there being judgemental - I thought it was lousy parenting, whatever the excuses. And I know we all have excuses and none of us is perfect but it doesn't mean there aren't some lousy parents out there. If that's what Fionn was saying then I agree.

Marina · 06/05/2002 19:43

Robbie, how right you were to spot the word "hit" in Fionn's original post. I really do feel upset and cross when I see an adult whacking a child in public, especially when accompanied by shouting at it - in fact, on a bus this very afternoon I saw a child wrenched out of the seat where it had chosen to sit and crammed into a pushchair with huge force, accompanied by swearing etc.
You've made us all think Fionn - and you should report back on how parents behave in public in Austria. A friend living in small-town Germany reports having neighbours putting notes through the letterbox chastising her for letting her children play in her own garden between 1 and 3pm. What a very feckless mother!

Rozzy · 06/05/2002 22:44

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sniksnak · 06/05/2002 23:03

Situations such as those described by Robby make me long for the physical punishment of children to be made illegal.

Do mumsnetters think that the focus of the NSPCC and other agencies on the prevention of physical abuse needs to be widened to encompass verbal/emotional abuse too? Could any previous contributors who work in the field come in here?

bloss · 06/05/2002 23:53

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robbie · 07/05/2002 10:22

I know what you mean Bloss - I agree most people would have regarded the scene with similar distaste. But it was "accepted" in so far as no one did (or really could do) anything about it, however unreasonable the parents' behaviour. I suppose as long as smacking remains legal it remains "acceptable" in our society - which is Sniksnak's point.

Tigger2 · 07/05/2002 10:57

Ah I see "smacking" has reared its head again, I do not go about smacking my children but have on onccassions smacked both of them. Now there are parents out there who go about willy nilly smacking and physically harming their children. There are also those of us who smack our children if they have gone beyond the limit of reason or talking to, which I think is a pretty pointless exercise with a 5 year old, who has repeatedly smacked his sister in the mouth and removed 2 of her front teeth. I have asked him and asked him, but on the last occassion when we thought he had removed a second tooth, his backside got a good swift smack. For anyone or any "body" to take that right away from me and many other unabusive parents in this country is wrong. I reiterate I do not smack my children very often, and will not in the future, for one a shout is usually enough from me, and 2 I really am strong, as I work outside doing a lot of physical work. You say you don't like smacking, but did you go and say anything to the adult that was hurting the child no. But I do see your point as well, if you had said anything, the chances could have been you might have been bashed as well.

I have spoken to several friends over the weekend break and asked them about their kids in the supermarket and all replied they became little horrors whenever the sliding doors opened, screamed all the way round the supermarket and then when getting to the checkout, smiled or gurgled happily whilst the mum or dad was looking very dishelved!!

tigermoth · 07/05/2002 11:16

I'd like to tell you about a scene I witnessed. A mother was walking along the pavement of a busy road on a grey drizzly day. Beside her was a little boy, about three to four years old. He looked very miserable and was crying loudly in protest at having to walk. Every few steps he sat down. The mother was holding his hand in a vice-like grip, and kept bending down at ear level to urge him onwards. Some of this was shouted and the words used were not very nice. He kept holding up his hands and asking to be carried. She totally ignored this and even shouted that she would leave the little boy behind. It would have been so simple to have given him a piggy back, but this did not seem to occur to her. They made their slow progress along the street, while many motorists stopped and stared at the scene.

I witnessed this because I was that woman. Looking back, it was one of my worst moments with my oldest son. I am not proud of the way I coped with his refusal to walk. But here is the context.

I had no pushchair - why?`because my son walked fine with my husband or any other adult. But when he was with me, he insisted on being carried for much of any journey. Dh had persuaded me to throw the pushchair away, so that our son would have to walk with me. Bad mistake - made a rod for my own back. But I don't think it was bad parenting.

Other reasons for this scene: I was extremely tired, having just spent 10 hours at my stall. I had lifed and carried lots of stock all day, so carrying my son was the last thing I wanted to do. My back was aching.

Lack of money, at the time, for a taxi. No time to wait for a bus.

The anger I felt towards my son for letting me down. Just before we set off, he had promised he would walk along this one road with me - about a 10 minute walk. He knew mummy was very tired. He knew he would have walked it if daddy had been there. I felt that I was not asking him to do something he was physically incapable of doing.
This was why I was so firm with him and refused to give him a piggy back.

I felt I had come to the end of my tether, but looking at me, you wouldn't have seen this. You might have guessed I was cross, but I was not loud (apart from shouting above the noise of the traffic) and certainly not violent. However, you would have seen a mother coldly and consistently ignoring her distressed child. And, in the mood I was in, if you had come up to me and reprimanded me in any way, I really cannot say what I would have done.

I never repeated this scene though came close a few times. However, to get my son to walk with me in public, I had to talk and threaten very firmly, grab his wrist to half march him, half drag him across roads, and ignore a lot of tears. I gathered a lot of 'looks' along the way.

The last time he asked to be carried was when he was six and weighed in at well over 4 stone. But by that time, I think public sympathy was on my side.

pupuce · 07/05/2002 11:43

Thank you for that lovely and honest story.... you're not alone !

bloss · 07/05/2002 12:08

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SueDonim · 07/05/2002 12:22

From Tigger's straw poll, I must be the only person in the world whose children adore going to the supermarket! My oldest, now 27, never passes up a chance to go to one. The next two are not so keen now they are older but they didn't seem to mind when they were small. The little one loves coming, too. That's not to say they haven't had their moments, of course, but I think basically I've raised a family of shopaholics!!