what are your feelings on the MMR jab??

[doodypud]

My DD has an appt for her jab on the 3rd of April, i am still really concerned about the possible links with Autism, has anyone else had concerns or any bad experiences?

Also - and this is what I am trying to get to is - does vaccinating make it more likely that babies will get measles? I think that is a sensible concern. I doubt that it will be possible to tell that for another 20 years though. Too many people of our generation had natural measles infection.

yes 7up I read your post. more than a bit worrying ....

MOst are one or the other. I like The vaccine guide by Neudstaedter - it would come under the anti heading, but it does give risks of not vaccinating as well. It doesn't pretend that you definitely won't experience the diseases either.

Is that the one in travellers?

Thanks, will have a look at it.

I don't know whether people would have better immunity from catching measles- I've never seen any evidence to suggest that they would but I suppose it's conceivable. There are plenty of other individuals who are immune compromised from birth though, and they have to be protected throughout.

Monkeybar, I had noticed that in the original paper too.

My reasons for choosing to get my 3 vaccinated - back in the seventies my best friend's mum was blind as the reult of measles, and the little girl next door was deaf as the result of her mother having contracted rubella. Small sample, but it swayed me! (A kid opposite almost died from whooping cough when her parents didn't vaccinate).

I meant that their immunity to childhood diseases would be better if caught naturally, so better protection against measles, better protection against mumps if the protection has been naturally rather than vaccine aquired.

I'm all for protecting the vulnerable but not at the cost of my entire family. Call me selfish. Call me misguided whatever but ultimately I have to make a decision knowing that if I end up with another ds1 to look after then I am responsible for that. I'm not prepared to do that unless I think that the risk to my children is very high.

If someone could tell me that they could guarantee 100% that ds2 and ds3 would not suffer a disabling condition from receiving a vaccination then I would go ahead. Obviously.

Spidermama, is it just the MMR vaccine you fear? What about polio? My father nearly died from it when he was 6 years old and suffer after-effects still in his 60s. Should you want your children to catch and process polio naturally?

Harpsi, I'm not sure anyone has said they make choices solely based on what's right for their children That would imply that people knowingly make choices which could adversly affect others. I happen to believe most people shouldn't vaccinate against measles and that we'd be a healthier, immuno-stronger community without the mass vaccination programme which interferes with our natural development.

Some people put their trust in nature for the good of their own children and of humankind in general, others prefer to believe in the wonders of modern medicine.

I think our general attitude towards health has taken several wrong turnings which the medical establishment will have a great deal of trouble backing out of when the shit hits the fan.

Polio - I live in Cork which had a major outbreak in the fifties, and now has an elderly 'survivor' population. Many of whom have had long, active lives, some of whom haven't.

I think we live in a very healthy and priviledged society where we can say things like "we want to put our trust in nature."

Polio doesn;t exist in developed countries now though so we don;t have to make a decison based on that (unless you travel). How much of the eradicaton is due to vaccination, how much due to better hygeine is a frequent debate. For the past decade the only polio cases in the UK have been vaccine derived- which is why the d of H tell us they switched to inactive polio. If I was taking my children to a polio ridden area then yes I would vaccinate (its a fairly safe vaccine- although personally would prefer for them to get the sugar lump than the jab- no idea if that's a choice now). However as we don't even get on a ferry to go to Ireland it's not very likely.

As for measles complications the only ones I fear more than severe autism are death and SSPE (which is ultimately fatal). So the decison for my family is based on likelihood of death vs likelihood of autism. Which is why I probably will vaccinate against measles if they get to puberty without getting it.

Well there's health and there's health isn't there. I wouldn't say that ds1 was healthy or remotely priviledged.

Spidermama, I was commenting on your statement that people make decisions based - like you - on what's best for their children. I was just commenting that, for some people, that isn't the end of the story and they take the bigger pcture into account.
if most people didn't vaccinate against measles, then more people would catch it and more people would die and suffer from the complications of measles. The ones most likely to die would be the weakest. So I uppose, as a consequence, we would be a "healthier" community. That is not something that I would be prepared to countenance.
If we didn't vaccinate against rubella, then more babies would be born with severe disabilities. Ditto

I think spidermama was saying that no-one would vaccinate to save little Johnny down the road if they thought their child would be damaged as a result. It is far easier to say that you are vaccinating for the common good if you don't actually think your child will come to any harm. I'd happily vaccinate for the common good if someone could guarantee to me that the jab wasn't going to turn my normally developing child into a mute doubly incontinent mentally retarded adult with challenging behaviour. Done that once thanks (except for the doubly incontinent bit- ds1 just pees and poos on the furniture and floor on purpose).No one's ever said thanks to us for doing our herd immunity bit with ds1, just called us selfish for not wanting to repeat the experience.

jimjams, no-one (on this thread) is saying that you are selfish, certainly not me.
I am just trying to say that it is not "smug" to think about the common good. Not are we talking about "saving little Johnny down the road." It is just a factor in the decision making process.

Harpsi, I make decisions on the evidence, my personal experience of these illnesses, my gut feeling and the studies and literature which is available to back up this feeling.

I don't believe in mass vaccination. That means I don't think it's the best route for my children or for the community as a whole. I think it's a big mistake.

By default 'little Johnny down the road' also figures in my philosophy. Perhaps a tiny minority of weakened people would be put at risk if measles outbreaks were to occur. Shouldn't those people then be vaccinated?

Why deny all of our children the chance to mature their immune systems as nature intended, attack their young immune systems by introducing all strainge cocktails directly into the bloodsteam, by-passing the bodies normal defences,

I smell greedy pharmaceuticals.
I fear the intransigence of the medical establishment and their desperation to cling onto a sacred cow. The stakes are too high. They can't afford to be wrong.

Sometimes people want to erradicate all illness and suffering. It's part of life. It has a purpose. It ought not to be snuffed out in a vacuum as if there would be no consequences.

There's plenty you could read about which backs up my deep rooted belief if you chose to, but somehow I don't think you will. Admittedly there's far less on my side of the debate, but then there's far less vested interest. People only have to look at what happened to Andrew Wakefield (reminiscent of a modern day witch hunt) to realise they'd best keep their mouths shut or be hounded and demonised. The professional climate is not safe for dissent.

That may have turned into a rant but I really hints that my decision is in some way selfish, ill informed or irresponsible. I wouldn't dream of levelling those allegations against those who take the opposide side to me.

Something that puzzles me a bit is some people's belief that you can not get an illness once you are vacinated. You can get many of them, but get a milder form of the disease.

I am aware you can get a disease even when vaccinated. I was vaccinated against measles, but got it very mildly. I have also had mumps and didn't get very ill at all. I have healthy children who would probably cope with these illnesses fine, but I do also have a friend who cannot vaccinate her little boy who has a weak heart and would probably not cope as well should he cath anything. Equally I wasn't keen on any of my newborn babies catching measles, whooping cough etc. I can understand that some people with certain family history choose not to vaccinate, but to me it is a social responsibility towards people who are weaker and might not have an immune system to develop so wonderfully naturally.

spidermama - the flaw in your argument is, as Chandra says, that vaccination does not offer complete protection and so the "weakened people" would still be vulnerable. Also, as you know there are many people whose immune systems and general health/family history would make immunisation unwise - unfortunately these people would be even more likely to suffer serious effects from catching these diseases. There are also those who have not been immunised yet - small babies - also vulnerable.
Moreover there are many sections of the community (like travellers, imiigrants and asylum seekers) who have not been immunised due their social isolation or lack of opportunity in their home community.
I msut say I am rather taken aback by your statement that there is plenty to read on your side if I chose to do so but somehow you don't think I will.... I must say I am unable to interpret this statement as anything other than an accusation of narrow mindedness or wilful ignorance. I wonder whether this accusaton is directed at me personally, or anyone who doesn't share your conclusions? As you will hopefully see from the rest of my posts, I am always interested in reading more about this subject (and many other subjects). I hope I haven't come across as calling your opinion ill informed, selfish or anything else. And I find myself rather wounded by your suggestion that my (equally deeply held) belief is somehow less informed or less worthy of respect than yours. I think it is possible to have a difference of opinion while still respecting the other person's opinion and not resorting to accusation of wilfil ignorance.

In which case it is still relevant to ask - does immunisation against measles make it more likely that babies will catch measles? I personally think that unless we go the US route and introuduce MMR boosters jabs in the teens that that may well be the case in 10-20 years time.

And why aren't we vacinating against chickenpox if the reason for doing it is to protect the vulnerable?

FM- it is normal for mumps (in children) to be a mild disease. My friend had whooping cough despite having had the vaccination and was told she had it mildly. Having seen her with it, and her 4 children (who weren't vaccinated) I would say she had it worse than them. I never quite believe that a vacinated child will only get a mild case of the disease argument. yes of course you can have partial failure, but (in the case of measles in particular) total failure is I think more likely, so if you're susceptible you're susceptible and get a normal case. Thinking about it the vaccinated child who gave ds1 rubella had a case that was indistinguishable from his. The only difference was that we knew it was rubella and stayed in- the mother of the vaccinated child thought it couldn't be rubella and went out everywhere - until she asked a pharmacist for advice- he went balllistic with her (which seems a bit unfair- it's not that easy to dx esepcially if you think your child is immune) for being out and she then went to her GP.

I think boosters in teens is a good idea and it's not just the US, but also some Scandinavian countries which do this. I personally vaccinated mine at 16 months and will give booster at 11-12 years. The MMR that is....