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Original poster

Following on from the Cameron/Christian thread, Lilibet needs advice

156 replies

lilibet · 29/07/2003 18:28

Ok here goes, I am very much in love with my (non christian) DP, we don't live together but he stays at my house with myself and my children usually about 4 nights a week. We are all very happy and the children really like him, all going very well. He knows how much my faith means to me, and would never dream of doing anything to take me away from it, in fact he is now a regular at church with me and finds some of the services really interesting, some prompting some very interesting discussions as he wants to know more about the topics that have been talked about. On Saturday night at a party, after quite a bit of drink all round, our Vicars wife mentioned to me the possibility of him attending the new Alpha that is coming up, I know that he would hate this sort of thing as I have mentioned it to him in the past and as he has never wanted to do it, I have left it. Told her this and also told her that from Sepetember he is doing accountancy exams in his own time after work so he will have very little spare time anyway, but I did point out to her that I was talking to him about Jesus and evangalising as best I could without becoming overbearing.
She then pointed out to me that as long as I was having sex with him, he would never make a commitment, as by going against all Christian teachings and 'fornicating' I was not doing Jesus any honour, and I was showing DP that I had no respect for my religion by picking and choosing which bits of the bible I was deciding to follow. Then came the worst bit, She was only asking me to do a little thing by stopping sleeping with him (how she knows that I am sleeping with him is another very long story!) its not like she was asking me to have nails driven into my hands. By this point I was in tears, DP came over, She started saying about the Alpha to him, he was a bit puzzled as to why I was crying and it developed into a stand up row between her and DP. I went to get the Vicar who is a wonderful gentle spirit led man, and asked him to intervene. He was a quiet calming influence, saying very little, his wife got upset and dp and I left. Following morning, it wsa very hard going to church and of course DP felt that he had to come with me, but all went well, we shared the peace with her and she hugged us both. I do know that she only has my and DP's best interests at heart and was doing what she thought was right but I was so upset and DP was absolutley furious. I didn't jump into bed with him immediatley, we were both certain that we loved one another before we had sex and he told them on Saturday that this is going to be a relationship that will last all our lives and how much he loves me, which did make me very proud of him. I know that she thinks that relationships where one person is born again adn one isn't are doomed to failure but I know that this will not be the case with us as he is so understanding and interested in my faith, but I admit that I have seen realtionships break up becasue of it.
So? Sorry If I have rambled, but would appreciate opinions. Thanks

OP posts:
janh · 01/08/2003 10:37

ex bishop? never-quite got there bishop?

nursie · 01/08/2003 12:01

nearly gay bishop, as in he was nearly a bishop, not as in he was nearly gay.
I think Miranda's point ( correct me if I've misunderstood, Miranda ) is that Jesus is not just God's son, he is also God himself in human form, created as man by God so as to walk among us on earth.

bloss · 01/08/2003 12:51

Message withdrawn

Boe · 02/08/2003 09:39

Thanks hmb - that is what I must be!!

I am not at all sure about this Jeffrey John thing - the bible does not agree with homosexuality yet they thought it was ok - bit like changing the rules to suit certain people and not following the bible at all - isn't that sort of what Henry VIII did??

The church in a lot of ways seems to be out of touch with the modern world and the child abuse thing really annoys me. (Loaded comment but there seems to be a lot of it going on and they do not take it seriously enough)

Rhubarb · 02/08/2003 12:12

Dunno, he wasn't a practising homosexual, but he refused to repent from the days when he was. And he probably thought why should he! From all who condemned him, how many of those had been divorced? Had cheated on their partners? I think in this case Jesus would have said "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone..."

bloss · 02/08/2003 12:36

Message withdrawn

CAM · 02/08/2003 14:16

Oh Jeffrey John was simply a victim of a tiny but vocal minority of people who do not represent the majortiy view of Christians. Most people in the church are horrified and shocked by the illiberal views of those few.

Tissy · 02/08/2003 15:12

I have to agree with CAM. This whole point hinges on whether you believe that homosexuality is innate or not. If it is, and therefore the homosexual cannot be expected to repent of what is not a volitional sin, then why should he be castigated? God made all sorts of men and women in his own image. I'm going to go further and say that I don't believe that he should be expected to be celibate, either, heterosexual priests don'y have to be. And, if he is fit to be a priest, he is also fit to be a bishop.

Tissy · 02/08/2003 15:19

I'm looking forward to the first female bishop, too

Mog · 02/08/2003 15:44

CAM, could you put some numbers on 'the tiny but vocal minority' and 'most people in the church are horrified'. I don't want to get into this debate but feel you are being slightly less than honest about numbers.

Podmog · 02/08/2003 19:50

Message withdrawn

nocompromise · 03/08/2003 00:14

CAM, you cannot speak on behalf of 'the majority of Christians' on this issue, and I do not believe that it is only a 'tiny few' who are against the ordination of homosexual priests into the church. The truth is that majority of Christians, if their beliefs are correctly alligned with the bible, would be horrified at the prospect. Why are people not reading the bible to find out whether or not this is God's will for the church? Because they wish to conform the church to their own way of thinking, not vice versa. I do not believe that the church is meant to hold 'liberal' views on everything, just because a growing number of people think it should.

Tissy, people may have been formed in the image of God, but people have the capacity to do good or bad with what they have been given. I can assure you that God is not a practising homosexual. Is he a murderer because he makes a human being who goes on to commit murder? People have choices to make every day but it doesn't mean their choices are correct - if they want to know how God feels about those choices, the answers are readily available in the bible. Otherwise there is no point having a church in the first place.

bloss · 03/08/2003 00:45

Message withdrawn

Tinker · 03/08/2003 01:07

Bloss - because greed, promiscuity and bad tempers are negative charcteristics, arguably. They may result in someone being hurt. Homosexuality doesn't. I'm anticpating that you may say it hurts god, but in what way? That it's not 'natural'? Well, you've already agreed that it is. That sex should be for procreation only? I know this has been discussed many times but I still don't understand how god is offended by this one natural characteristic which does not cause hurt to anyone else.

And now I'm definitely going to bed.

nocompromise · 03/08/2003 04:50

Tinker I'm sure that homosexuality can and does hurt other people, in the same way that adultery or indiscriminate sex can hurt someone. Would you have a problem with a homosexual man teaching a classroom full of young boys? It's amazing how people want to stick up for the rights of a homosexual man who wishes to be the head of a church, but they would be mighty uncomfortable if that same man was their young son's school teacher.

The bible says that sexual immorality is the one sin that causes a person to sin against his own body. It is in the NT and I can find the verse if anyone's interested. As far as homosexuality being 'natural', it is actually described in the bible as an unnatural act, because man and woman were meant for each other. This view is considered to be sooooooo antiquated in today's modern society, but once again, the bible's messages are clear about so many things but it's whether people choose to accept them or not.

bloss · 03/08/2003 09:31

Message withdrawn

bloss · 03/08/2003 09:54

Message withdrawn

Mog · 03/08/2003 10:01

Just to add to what Bloss has just said, I think it is important to look behind what the bible says to why God might have layed something down. In the case of no divorce, we see a reflection of God's love of faithfulness which is what he says he is to his followers.
Also on the issue of homosexuality (and I don't want to get into this debate because I think it is too emotive to be solved on a chatboard) I think it is important to be honest and admit that very few homosexual relationships are stable and committed for life. Some are but it would be the promiscuous lifestyle and all that goes with that which I couldn't reconcile with christianity.

Get well soon Bloss

Tinker · 03/08/2003 10:29

nocompomise - I wouldn't have a problem at all with a homosexual teaching a class of young boys. It must happen a lot surely. I would have a problem with a paedophile teaching a calls of young boys. I hope that you're not suggesting paedophilia and homosexuality are the same thing.

Bloss - well I can see that we just won't be able to agree on this For me, between consenting adults, I can see no problem with gay couples at all. In fact, I hestitated to include promiscuity as something which may hurt if it is between consenting, single adults. In the same way, I can see no problem with divorce if the couple are extremely unhappy, unable to be reconciled. Marriage 2000 thousand years was of a considerably shorter duration than today. In fact, watching a programme about Gauguin last night made that point, that the average life expectancy in Tahiti is still only about 50 odd hence the acceptance of marriage to girls as young as 13. I digress.

Mog - I would suggest that "very few homosexual relationships are stable and committed for life" (if this is statistically true) is precisely because it is very much more difficult to be openly gay - see nocompromise's comments re teachers.

Tinker · 03/08/2003 10:29

'a class' not 'a calls' ?

Tinker · 03/08/2003 10:39

Oh, and I don't think that the Vatican's and George Bush's anti-gay marriage stance will help at all. I think the UK has made a very wise choice to recognise gay couples legally.

bloss · 03/08/2003 11:04

Message withdrawn

sis · 03/08/2003 19:55

Nocompromise, I would not have a problem with a homosexual man teaching my son - just as I would not have a problem with a hetrosexual man teaching my daughter (albeit imaginary daughter, as I only have a son). I would, however, have a problem with a known paediophile(sp?) teaching young children. I do not assume that all homosexuals are also child abusers nor that they wish to 'convert' children to homosexuality.

Tortington · 03/08/2003 21:31

i never understood how homosexuals and peadophile were automatically equated.

does that mean lesbians too btw? are they peadophiles? they pray on young children to turn them all into a little lesbo army which will take over the woooooooooorrrrrrrlllld.

men will wear prada shoes and women check shirts
and people will cease to have children for a while maybe then many people would value children more.

honestly

Hilary · 03/08/2003 22:30

Haven't read all of this as it is late and I am TIRED but just to say, I am a church minister's wife and I am appalled that she made this her business without being approached about it by you. It is her husband who has a pastoral job in the church, not her. I wouldn't dream of wading in like that. Like someone said earlier on, it is far more likely to put someone off from ever going to church again than welcoming them in. Not that we should just be wishy-washy and agree with everything everybody does but this was a very bad move on her part and I'm not surprised you were upset.

miranda2 - where did you train?