Following on from the Cameron/Christian thread, Lilibet needs advice

[lilibet]

Ok here goes, I am very much in love with my (non christian) DP, we don't live together but he stays at my house with myself and my children usually about 4 nights a week. We are all very happy and the children really like him, all going very well. He knows how much my faith means to me, and would never dream of doing anything to take me away from it, in fact he is now a regular at church with me and finds some of the services really interesting, some prompting some very interesting discussions as he wants to know more about the topics that have been talked about. On Saturday night at a party, after quite a bit of drink all round, our Vicars wife mentioned to me the possibility of him attending the new Alpha that is coming up, I know that he would hate this sort of thing as I have mentioned it to him in the past and as he has never wanted to do it, I have left it. Told her this and also told her that from Sepetember he is doing accountancy exams in his own time after work so he will have very little spare time anyway, but I did point out to her that I was talking to him about Jesus and evangalising as best I could without becoming overbearing.
She then pointed out to me that as long as I was having sex with him, he would never make a commitment, as by going against all Christian teachings and 'fornicating' I was not doing Jesus any honour, and I was showing DP that I had no respect for my religion by picking and choosing which bits of the bible I was deciding to follow. Then came the worst bit, She was only asking me to do a little thing by stopping sleeping with him (how she knows that I am sleeping with him is another very long story!) its not like she was asking me to have nails driven into my hands. By this point I was in tears, DP came over, She started saying about the Alpha to him, he was a bit puzzled as to why I was crying and it developed into a stand up row between her and DP. I went to get the Vicar who is a wonderful gentle spirit led man, and asked him to intervene. He was a quiet calming influence, saying very little, his wife got upset and dp and I left. Following morning, it wsa very hard going to church and of course DP felt that he had to come with me, but all went well, we shared the peace with her and she hugged us both. I do know that she only has my and DP's best interests at heart and was doing what she thought was right but I was so upset and DP was absolutley furious. I didn't jump into bed with him immediatley, we were both certain that we loved one another before we had sex and he told them on Saturday that this is going to be a relationship that will last all our lives and how much he loves me, which did make me very proud of him. I know that she thinks that relationships where one person is born again adn one isn't are doomed to failure but I know that this will not be the case with us as he is so understanding and interested in my faith, but I admit that I have seen realtionships break up becasue of it.
So? Sorry If I have rambled, but would appreciate opinions. Thanks

I'd be interested in Miranda's answer to Tissy's question too, if you feel able to reply, Miranda (and it's great to have a curate here too, especially one who is prepared to be less than 110% enthusiastic about the Alpha way of doing things).
Lilibet, I was very sorry to hear what your Vicar's wife felt she had to say to you - like many others here I feel she overstepped her pastoral remit to you, however much she felt she had your interests at heart. I too think it is great that you both attend church together - I finally managed to get dh confirmed the year after we married. I really hope that the many happinesses that your faith clearly brings you count for more with your lovely-sounding dp than the Vicar's wife temporarily losing her grip...

Just reread the question - does God require us to believe in Jesus to get to heaven? OOh, biggy... (deep breath) Many christians would say yes. Many would say no. Then there's the whole question of heaven existing... (lets just not go there now )
I and most Christians DON'T think people of other faiths and none will go to hell! Beyond that level of agreement there is a lot of confusion and no consensus. Inter-faith dialogue and understanding is really at an early stage. But the question 'what about people who are good enough to deserve it but not Christians' does miss the point, that its not about being 'good enough' - Gods love for us, and salvation (however understood) aren't about us deserving it, they are about God freely giving it even though we don't deserve it. Personally I think pretty much everyone will go to heaven - I suspect that we all get the choice when we die, and I suppose a few really twisted people might turn away from God's love with a shudder, and choose not to go to heaven, but most people are basically loving and will recognise God with joy. (Or everyone might be in the same place but if you are totally depraved then that might be hell to you??). Certainly on the other faiths thing I think God is a LOT bigger than the names and boxes we try to put him into.
Sorry to go on - does this answer the question??

Sorry to do this to you Miranda, I was going to start a new thread but this one seems to have taken its own 'ask Miranda a theological question' route, and as I started it, I feel totally justified in hijacking it!! Anyhow back to the question, whichis my DP's favourite and I can nver come up with a convincing enough answer
"If there are so many millions of religions in the world, how can you be sure that Christianity is the right/true one?"
Btw Miranda, you must be a brill curate if you talk this sort of common sense Christianity in Church, your parish are blessed to have you, and I'm not just creeping so I can 'get in with the vicar!!' And another point in your favour is that you don't have a wife

i personally believe ( and i am sure its not what popey J.II tells the rest of vatican city after a couple of beers) that ones faith in god is the important thing, not the religeon. if religeon helps you get there thats cool too. if you have a faith in god which doesnt include jesus then as a catholic i reckon i just have had the privalidge of knowing jesus longer - but you will get to know him eventually.

i would like to say that in our society it is hard to find a good partner. its harder when you have already been there and done htat and it didnt work. its harder still if you have children from a previous relationship.

that your partner is willing to explore your religeon and faith with you is wonderful.

i think you could tell your vicars wifey that you understand where she is coming from and have taken on board her views and understands why she felt she must express them ( quite so vehemently maybe not), but this is something personal between your family and God and your faith in god is such that he will help you.

i have ben married to a heathen damned to hell for 14 yrs. i have been told by other "christians" he will go to hell and i will not spend eternity with him.

however the man i married is a staunch agnostic, but he supports my faith and my childrens faith and he doesnt come to church with me or the children on sunday but he does attend important events in their religeos life - xmas, easter, may parade communion etc etc.

and to me that makes him more wonderful

am sure god thinks he is wonderful too - i have just been fortunate to know god longer but my DH will know him one day

I was pleased to read your answer, Miranda (well, both of them, actually), because I have been told in the past that I am not a Christan, because I cannot accept the whole bible as fact. I say "cannot" because I haven't had time in my busy life to explore all the issues in enough depth to convince me either way.

I believe that Jesus existed that he was a great man, teacher, prophet, whatever. I believe that he was the son of God, though, I couldn't prove it through theological argument, and that whatever the resurrection actually was, it had an amazing impact on the lives of the people around at the time, so must have been something unusual. BUT, wasn't the bible written by a collection of different people, both a long time before and a long time after Jesus' death, some of whom (most?)didn't know Him personally and were recounting stories that they had heard or messages that they themselves wanted to pass on? Weren't the different books written in a collection of different languages,some not spoken today, whose interpretation MUST have changed over two thousand years? One of my difficulties is with people who say, "you must believe this because it is written in the bible, it is the inspired word of God". By the time the passage has been passed down a few generations, translated a few times and "interpreted" to suit the person who is compiling that particular version, surely it has lost something of the original? That is why I have no difficulty in thinking that we should read what is says and try to understand what it means to us, today, here in this life.

This is great, thanks lilibet for starting the thread, and thanks to the "Mumsnet Vicar"

Message withdrawn

Have people seen the article in the paper today about a group of theologians from C of E who have written a paper about Money, Sex and Power ? They write that sex is a gift from God, a wonderful blessing in a ' covenant relationship' and they concede that that may not always be within marriage.
It occurs to me that this is a very well-timed article for you Lilibet. God is listening!
I think your dp is being wonderful supporting you and coming to church with you. Conversions can take time, they are not all Damascene ( road to Damascus, blinding lights etc ) moments. Mine took years, a gradual exploration of my beliefs and increase in my faith. Christianity is a journey with ups and downs like any journey, but God is always with us to help us along the way if we ask him.
It is lovely to read these messages; Miranda2, you are definitely a very cool vicar.

Message withdrawn

Alpha is definitely not for everyone - and your DP sounds like someone who could be put right off by it. It works for some, but depending on where your head's at, it can be too basic/ too confrontational/ not sufficiently personal or relevant and consequently leave one further away from its stated goal. What's important in my experience is the example set by Godly people over time - leading one to want to be more like them and want some of what they've got. Being with you, he's in exactly the right place.

Message withdrawn

Nursie, yes, I read about that article too in today's paper - does seem very appropriate for this thread!

my frivolous comment - keep the vicar's wife away from the sherry next time!

sorry, lilibet, i know this has upset you, some excellent responses here. as a "cultural" rather than a "religious" catholic, i don't have much to add, except that i thought the c of e was all about a direct relationship between the individual and god without the intervention of priests, let alone without the intervention of the vicar's wife (ok i know it is about more than just that). surely it's up to you to examine your own conscience? given what you have had to endure in the past, i think the healing offered by this relationship is probably very valuable to you spiritually.

maybe she just had enough to drink to be "indiscreet" and is really regretting it now...

Lillibet, what a horrible thing to have happened.

I am Jewish and my dh is not. My dh does not follow any religion and would only attend church for a wedding/funeral. I do not follow Judaism in my day to day life but there are certain aspects I believe in and before we married and had children we discussed this and agreed our children would be Jewish (they follow the mothers religion in Judaism anyway)and I would teach them about Judaism. As they get older they can make their own choices.
The main thing is that my dh and I are, as lisalisa put it so well, headed in the same direction with what we want for ourselves and our children and this, I believe,is the most important thing.

Message withdrawn

Hello again!
Tissy - I thought your comments about the bible were spot on, that's exactly what I think. so do most theologians, which is why conservative christians get so annoyed (eg, why some conservative groups criticise Rowan Williams, the new archbishop, because that's basically what he thinks - so this is very mainstream C of E thinking!).
Also thought Custardo's point about everyone meeting God/Jesus eventually, just that Christians have had the pleasure of knowing him/her (!feminist alert...!) longer, was very well put. That's basically my answer to your/ your dp's question, lilibet, though easier if we distinguish God (as s/he is in eternity) from Jesus (God as revealed to us in time). All religions (at least all mainstream ones - some cults might not fit here if they are basically nasty) I see as responses to God. People have experiences of God - from marvelling at nature, to the amazing feeling of transcendent love when looking at your children sometimes, or the sense of connectedness with the universe you sometimes get at odd moments (joint orgasm??!!), through to more explicitly 'religious' experiences like feeling comforted when you were praying, suddenly 'knowing' something, etc. People have to do something with those feelings, and of course over time different frameworks for understanding them and controlling them or responding to them have grown up in different parts of the world (and in different cultures within the same geographical area). Maybe if we'd had modern communications thousands of years ago we'd all have one religion, who knows, but the accretions of centuries aren't just going to be swept away now. So I'd say most religions are dealing with the same God. Its pretty basic to Christianity, Judaism and Islam that there is only one God anyway, and others eg Hinduism that have several still tend to see them as aspects of one ultimate being - (I think, I don't know very much about comparative religions I'm afraid. Must learn more). You then get into the question, is one 'better' than another? Its impossible for us to know the answer to this, it can only be speculation/inference. One 'test' Christianity uses is the idea that 'the fruits of the spirit' testify to the spirits presence - that is, that if love, joy, peace, etc are coming out of something then that thing must be authentically of God. (Christianity doesn't score very well here historically?!!) On that basis I think it would be hard to argue that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism etc weren't at least partly of God - they all seem to produce good things in their adherents mainly (I know we hear a lot about Islamic fundamentalists nowadays, but most Muslims are peaceful, loving people). One common view is that they are all worshipping God, but Christians know him better because we understand him as revealed in Jesus. This seems to be Custardo's point. Some people are more radical - one theologian, John Hicks, argues for a 'Copernican Revolution' in the theology of different faiths,by analogy with Copernicus changing astronomy from thinking of the planets revolving around the earth to seeing them all including us revolving around the sun. He suggests we shouldn't see other religions as planets revolving around Christianity at the centre, with others further away (Judaism next nearest, then Islam, then others is probably how most people would see it if pushed) but should understand all religions, including Christianity, as revolving around God. I think this is a good way forward, though you still could get into the school playground level discussion of who was closest if you felt it was important (I don't particularly). I think Christianity has some important and unique things to say about understanding our relationship with God, but I'm sure other religions also have important things to say to us if only we'd listen.
So then - why choose Christianity? Well, I don't like the idea that you shop around and choose - traditionally you;d just have been whatever you were born with, and there's a lot in that still because like it or not our culture has been largely shaped by Christianity and so its quite hard, if not impossible, for us to get out of that mindset and enter into the world view of another religion wholeheartedly. And I think that's important - to enter into one religion properly, not pick and choose from different ones. This is because each religion has checks and balances built into its theology and ritual, to stop you making too much of one bit and ignoring the counterparts which make up a rounded view. If you just pick and choose you are in danger of missing these subtleties which have taken centuries/millenia to finetune. So generally, its best to join the religion you find about you and do your best to find God through it.
Hope this helps.
This is fun! More fun than writing a sermon for sunday...

Message withdrawn

hello, not time to comment on all your incredible messages of support properly cos I'm at work, but they are all wonderful.
Just a few comments, I think that one or two of you may have misunderstood, dp is here to stay, i have no intention of leaving him because of what was said. He fully supports my faith and any decisions I make about the children being raised as Christians, he came to see ds's do things in church which is more than exdh did!
And, what paper is this article in? I cant stand in WH Smiths reading them all!!

Sorry, should have said. The article is in today's Times.

Hi. In the past I have sometimes criticised the length of time a certain person spends mumsnet-ing. No more however!!

It is very clear to me that you are a wonderful, knowledgeable, understanding and varied group of people, and your answers to this post have been thought-provoking, comforting and very supportive.

When we first met I always said "I don't discuss religion", but always said it very tongue-in-cheek as a lot of our conversations actually involved religion!

Up until Saturday night I had never felt 'unwelcomed' by this church, and indeed the Vicar himself (despite the quantity of punch consumed) was still ok with me (i hope) when we finally (amicably) left the party. I do believe his wife means well at heart, and a lot of my anger (I do think I remained quite calm considering) was due to the amount of upset that had been caused by her remarks, to my mind unnecessarily.

I have always felt that someone's private life should remain just that - and that this was a serious intrusion into our lives. I hope that through what happened the vicar's wife will now realise that tact and care are needed in such situations. I will not stop going to the church because of what happened, but it has made me very wary of how we are being perceived as a couple.

Can I just add that other people at the party (the first real church 'function' I have attended) were kind, friendly and incredibly welcoming to me.

So there it is - my first Mumsnet posting!!

(PS Miranda - If you are going to run a Mumsnet alpha I could well be tempted to join in occasionally)

Message withdrawn

he posted!!
I can't beleive it!
He posted!
And he never told me!!!
Where will it end?

Bloss, just wanted to say that I posted earlier (the thread is too long to read all posts, I know) and my situation was identical to yours. I went through exactly the same thought processes as you, including being honest about what God says about being with an unbeliever.
No reason for posting but just wanted to let you know I reached the same conclusion as you. Wish we could have chatted at the time!

lilibet, THIS is serious !!!
Guess he knows about the diet now too !

My dh got confirmed in June because he wanted to understand what communion was all about and to be able to join in with it.

really cam! wow thats great

i dont know what an alpha course is about - as well as being for those who want more info - can it be for those who was to reaffirm some things too?