Following on from the Cameron/Christian thread, Lilibet needs advice

[lilibet]

Ok here goes, I am very much in love with my (non christian) DP, we don't live together but he stays at my house with myself and my children usually about 4 nights a week. We are all very happy and the children really like him, all going very well. He knows how much my faith means to me, and would never dream of doing anything to take me away from it, in fact he is now a regular at church with me and finds some of the services really interesting, some prompting some very interesting discussions as he wants to know more about the topics that have been talked about. On Saturday night at a party, after quite a bit of drink all round, our Vicars wife mentioned to me the possibility of him attending the new Alpha that is coming up, I know that he would hate this sort of thing as I have mentioned it to him in the past and as he has never wanted to do it, I have left it. Told her this and also told her that from Sepetember he is doing accountancy exams in his own time after work so he will have very little spare time anyway, but I did point out to her that I was talking to him about Jesus and evangalising as best I could without becoming overbearing.
She then pointed out to me that as long as I was having sex with him, he would never make a commitment, as by going against all Christian teachings and 'fornicating' I was not doing Jesus any honour, and I was showing DP that I had no respect for my religion by picking and choosing which bits of the bible I was deciding to follow. Then came the worst bit, She was only asking me to do a little thing by stopping sleeping with him (how she knows that I am sleeping with him is another very long story!) its not like she was asking me to have nails driven into my hands. By this point I was in tears, DP came over, She started saying about the Alpha to him, he was a bit puzzled as to why I was crying and it developed into a stand up row between her and DP. I went to get the Vicar who is a wonderful gentle spirit led man, and asked him to intervene. He was a quiet calming influence, saying very little, his wife got upset and dp and I left. Following morning, it wsa very hard going to church and of course DP felt that he had to come with me, but all went well, we shared the peace with her and she hugged us both. I do know that she only has my and DP's best interests at heart and was doing what she thought was right but I was so upset and DP was absolutley furious. I didn't jump into bed with him immediatley, we were both certain that we loved one another before we had sex and he told them on Saturday that this is going to be a relationship that will last all our lives and how much he loves me, which did make me very proud of him. I know that she thinks that relationships where one person is born again adn one isn't are doomed to failure but I know that this will not be the case with us as he is so understanding and interested in my faith, but I admit that I have seen realtionships break up becasue of it.
So? Sorry If I have rambled, but would appreciate opinions. Thanks

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custardo, Alpha courses can definitely be good for re-affirming beliefs and are a great opportunity to ask any questions you might have. My MIL runs one in her local pub and often has Christians in her group who come along because they have ongoing questions and also for support. I think the pub setting helps too!

Miranda2, God makes me shudder. He seems to me from the Bible to be a mercurial, vengeful, bad tempered bigot, who doesn't think twice about murder, encouraging father's to hurt and terrify their children (pretend sacrifices, to name but one example) and who loathes gay people. I don't want to spend eternity with someone like that. I don't want to spend five minutes with someone like that. He is according to all the written evidence, a thoroughly nasty piece of work. So if being with him is heaven, what is hell?

Oops, misplaced apostrophe.

Am genuinely interested. Have never had the chance to ask a vicar that question.

so how exactly would you phrase it to the vicar then aloha
seriously though - I've been bought up catholic and have had christened my son - but more out of a sense of duty to my parents than a real belief. I don't know what I believe and find these threads very interesing as they show there are people who do believe strongly but don't feel the need to be overbearing with it. I don't know that I want to belive either though - it seems it would be just another thing to have to make time for.
How do you start to believe and why did you?

Now if Aloha comes to the next Vicarage Garden Party.........

Well, I would probably phrase it pretty much like that! Reading the Bible it seems to me that God is a pretty hideous character with no redeeming features. If a real person did those things (force a man into laying out his son as a human sacrifice etc) we'd call him evil, wouldn't we. How can God be good if he does evil things? The gods of ancient Greece were pretty vile, but nobody ever said they were perfect and all loving, it was just accepted that they were cruel and frightening but all powerful so people worshipped out of fear. Christianity seems to suggest that we should worship God because he is loving, but I don't see any love there.

aloha, there is plenty of love in the bible! God sent his son to Earth, knowing that he would be crucified for being a threat to the rulers of the time. Much of what Jesus did was clearly loving;curing illness, sharing food, teaching (OK I'm being a bit simplistic, but I'm a bit rusty and I don't have a bible on me!).

I'll let miranda, or anyone else up to the challenge, explain all the bad bits, but I think that some of it may come down to interpretation. I think that a lot of those bits are in the Old Testament. Those "stories" were told by the Jews presumably to encourage their followers to be faithfull, maybe there was bit of "artistic licence" going on?

I'm sure God has the capacity to be angry, just as we have (angrier, even!), and we do a hell of a lot to be angry about, I'm sure, but I too have difficulty with the vengeance thing!

Over to those more expert than me!

eefs,
I was brought up a Catholic but drifted away about 17. I then looked into various other things and spent over 10 years doing eastern meditation, studying eastern religions etc. The reason I came back to Christianity is that I think it offers something the other religions don't (I would differ with Miranda here and her view on other faiths).
For me other faiths all give a pathway to God, a series of hoops (be it meditation or good deeds) that you have to perform to reach God. What Christianity says is that because of Jesus and him 'bearing our sins' we can come directly to God. The pathway has been cleared if you like. This is all very practical though because when you come to faith in Jesus., the Holy Spirit comes into your life and then things really start happening. I believe christianity to be unique and Jesus was very clear about this.

I offer this because you asked how people come to faith.

Ah, yes, I think Jesus sounds OK. Liked a party, liked a drink, liked women as people. It's God who sounds so appalling. I don't think handing your innocent son over to be crucified in agony is very loving TBH. Would you do it? Would you like someone who did?

Ah, yes, I think Jesus sounds OK. Liked a party, liked a drink, liked women as people. It's God who sounds so appalling. I don't think handing your innocent son over to be crucified in agony is very loving TBH. Would you do it? Would you like someone who did?

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Aloha, the best I can say is, that I love my children with all my heart, and I would give my life to save them. I can never imagine loving anyone so much that I would harm my child, but that is how much God loves me, that he sent his Son to die for me so that I can be redeemed. And once you realsise that there is someone who exists who loves you that much its the most fantastic feeling in the world.
And the best gift that I could ever give my children is the knowledge that they are completely secure in Gods love, as Aloha are you!!!

lisalisa, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that to sound insulting, and having re-read it I can see that it might.

The Old Testament is Jewish, isn't it?

Isn't it a collection of stories? I didn't mean necessarily untrue ones, I'm in no position to judge, just "accounts". Really basic example coming up...isn't Genesis an account (or story) of how the earth began?

I said that I am rusty, haven't done any serious bible reading for several years, but weren't the examples of sacrifice that aloha was referring to in the Old Testament?

I can see that sacrifice of whatever sort is a way of demonstrating your love for someone, but can't it also be a way of demonstrating obedience? I really am on shaky ground here, but what was the penalty for not doing what God was said to want?

As I have said before, lisalisa, I really am interested in your perspective, that wasn't meant to be a dig.

Quick, someone explain why God is vengeful, and needful of sacrifices, before I really get myself tied in knots!

How I started to believe and why - I met my Christian dh when I was a non-Christian. He spent years trying to persuade me to go to church with him, and only occasionally succeeding, and even then I would spend the rest of the day complaining about the bits I didn't like about the service. He just listened and we talked about my objections. Basically I met so many Christians whose beliefs infused their lives and influenced everything they did; that was new to me. I didn't realise that God could be with you everyday, not just Sundays and special occasions! It's not a question of making time for God; He is there all the time.

Nursie, thanks for telling me about the Times yesterday - what a good article, and what good timing! As you said, God listens.

And, lisalisa, I didn't say "keep them in line" I said, "encourage them to be faithfull". I thought I had chosen my words quite carefully.

Isn't the whole bible (OT and NT)all about telling us about our religion and encouraging us to be faithfull?

I don't want anyone to kill their kids for me! That's not a love I could recognise or want. Frankly, it sounds a bit psychotic. And it doesn't make sense, either. God is all powerful. He can save anyone. Why cause someone to be tortured to death? I have raised this point before but never got an answer I could understand.

aloha - totally know where you are coming from as I feel the same as you. Too many unanswered questions and too many contradictions IMO.

I'm going to put my head on the block here but I can't help but feel that religion was created to enforce law and order. Some people need to feel that there is 'a greater power than themselves' and feel safe living by their rules.

I know this might seem like a really stupid question and for that I apologise, but if we go back to the very beginning when there was just Adam and Eve, and they had 2 sons, then how did they procreate from there? Am I missing something?

I would love to be enlightened.

I love my son more than anything in the world too, and wouldn't touch a hair on his head for anyone! Could I imagine loving someone so much I'd kill my son for them? Er, why would loving someone mean I had to kill my son? Just don't get it. Miranda2, you must have an answer, surely??

Northerner, yes, I feel like you. I am amazed that people believe. I just honestly don't know how they can. And I don't know how they answer those questions to themselves. Good point re the sons!

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Lisalisa, I didn't think that the two words we that different, sorry. An account is based on the perceptual viewpoint of the person making the point, and is not necessarily any more true than a story. I don't think stories are necessarily untrue. Maybe I should study semantics as well as the bible.

Surely the bible is supposed to encourage faith? I'll stick to NT here, but by telling us about Christ's life death and teachings, plus the teachings of his apostles we're encouraged to follow suit. I said I didn't understand the vengeful God who requires sacrifices, (probably these are two quite separate issues),and if I am right that those bits are mostly in the OT, then how do they encourage followers? I didn't mean get them to toe the line, but persuade them that this path is the right one?

What do you mean by "believe in and accept the validity of the OT"? As you will see below, Christianity has a spectrum of attitudes from "It says so so it must be true", to " how can I apply these words to me?". Born Again Christianity is one end of the spectrum, and many Born Again Christians would denounce me for being at the other end. The OT is certainly valid, but not necessarily all fact. All Christians read both OT and NT, they both have much to teach us.