Daycare say that my toddler is hard work??

[Mamalunn95]

My partner has just dropped our 19 month old daughter off at daycare which she has now attended for 11 months part time (two half days per week currently). One of the workers in the room has said to him: “I hope C is in a better mood today, she was really hard work yesterday.” Apparently she said it in a quite lighthearted way but to me this isn’t something a nursery worker should say to a parent. I find it quite hard leaving her as it is without the added anxiety that the nursery workers think she is difficult and that I am unable to control her behaviour...

When I collected her yesterday they said that she had been pushing other children and trying to take toys which she wants off them. My understanding as CACHE Level 3 Early Years Educator is that this developmentally appropriate. Although I have only seen her behave this way with her cousins when they are really in her space or snatching from her, she will push them or lash out and we respond to this without negative discipline such as time out. For example, if she becomes overwhelmed and lashes out then we will ask if she remembers how to be gentle and then show her how to be gentle again by stroking her face or our face with her hand and she responds well to this. We also are aware of potential triggers for her which make her behave in an unacceptable way. I think this is what nursery workers should be focusing on rather than telling us she is difficult. If she was a child in my class I would complete repeated observations from when she is behaving unacceptably to identify potential triggers as we know that babies do not have the intention to upset others.

Am I being unreasonable to be offended by this? Or think that it was inappropriate for the worker to make a comment like this?

I’m going to ask to see their discipline policy as I think they use timeouts for the two year old room, which is something my partner and I don’t agree with.

What’s your opinion?

I think the problem here is that you have been very lecturey about your “right” way of parenting, which is evidence based etc. Then someone points out that there is a lot of evidence that doesn’t support your approach and you downgrade to:

Yes there are two different camps it seems when it comes to timeouts

And then it’s pointed out that you linked to an article that the authors themselves don’t agree with and where they actually do support time outs and were misconstrued, so now we just have two books and we all know that you can find a parenting book to support virtually everything.

You have put people’s backs up because you have assumed that no one but you knows anything about child development. You appear to be using techniques intended for much younger children, and to accept that a 19 month old child pushing others is “developmentally appropriate” as opposed to being behaviour that is within normal ranges at that age but very far from desirable.

Without all that, yes you’d have had a much shorter thread as you say.

All toddlers are hard work. Nursery staff are overworked and underpaid and may be better at communicating with toddlers than their parents.

I would take this opportunity though to really think whether nursery is working for you, as well as whether your other childcare is. Are your DD’s grandparents matching your approach? Obviously sleep schedule should be much easier for them as they only have your DD but what about discipline?

Oh as an aside I just did some googling because my knowledge of childcare qualifications is nil and I was curious about what CACHE stood for, and it looks like the level 3 qualification is “worth” 28 ucas points which is the equivalent of a single a level at c/d. It sounds like you had to do a lot of work to get it and it’s enough for you to have an EYFS class so why are childcare qualifications so undervalued? Sad if they are. Or maybe I read the wrong thing because it’s 5.30 am and I can’t sleep. Looks like an interesting course.

Gosh you have been posting on this thread almost 24 hours . Nursery worker did not say she was difficult , she said she had been hard work that day .

As far as I can see there was no comments how her behaviour was dealt with. So all the debate about how to deal with behaviours has no real relevance. In many ways she is saying she was out of character as if a child was constantly challenging they wouldn’t make that comment.

Home and nursery will be different for so many reasons , it is a completely different environment and it is also a lesson differentl rules for different places .

I think you are expecting too much if you think everything is going to be done your way.

Why did your partner tell you ? Is he bothered by this ?

Do you ever have days when you think your child is hard work? If you haven’t yet you will.

For some toddlers it's typical behaviour and the nursery should deal with it, but they're right to also tell you about and expect some input at home to control it.

You don't believe in making a child say sorry when they've done something nasty to someone? If you're not a troll then you're kids going to be an entitled brat because of you

I mean this in the nicest possible way, as someone who works with children, and who has 3 of her own with close age gaps and an older step child, most of what is written by so-called experts is complete bollocks.

You will find this out as your child gets older and especially if you have another.

Always the best advice and guidance on any particular issue has been here on mumsnet.

I think its very difficult leaving your child in childcare because they arent going to get the same one to one care as you can give and they are one of many childrem to the nursery / school . They didn't say your child was difficult they said she had been hard work it's a very common saying I would of thought most people would have heard of it. You say they didn't discuss a plan ECT well I would imagine if it was at drop of your partner was rushing to work did he want to go in and have a meeting there and then and be late for work? If at pick up there may have been other parents needing to pick up. Are you and your partner both very sensitive people ( nothing wrong with that I am and my little boy is sensitive I think it's a lovley quality ) just seems slightly unusual for you both to be so upset over one comment when you have been happy with the nursery so far. I don't think the nursery probably feel a meeting is needed at this point they where just telling you about this one day. If it continues they may suggest a meeting. I don't use time out and do things my own way and sometimes dont agree with some things family / friends do but don't think it's any of my business what anyone else chooses to do so would never comment or mention anything. I woud say for the future its probably best not to get into discussions with other parents about this sort of thing and i certinly wouldnt mention you believe they are causing their children mental health problems. If you feel the nursery isn't a good fit I think you need to consider your options no nursery will do things exactly like you. It sounds to me like you want to be the one caring for her you also say happy to home school so have you considered being with her full time now ? if this isn't a option you could try a nanny then they would only have your daughter and could follow your instructions. Do grandparents do everything exactly as you want them too. Il be very honest I was a sahm till my son was 3 and a half and started nursery and only worked very very few hours then. He has just started school and it is hard to hand your child over and you don't get too see them , you don't get much feedback from teacher ECT honestly I'm finding it a bit tough so I think I maybe understand a bit of how you feel I loved being at home with him , we have such good fun together and I really loved it so it is very hard to know they won't get the same love and attention they get from you.

You asked for an opinion - the opinion that was given was that nursery was fine and that the child’s behaviour was far from acceptable - which you’ve defended passionately and disparaged other forms of parenting. Tbh if my child was being pushed and hit by yours I’d be demanding the nursery intervene / address it with the parent.

Your parenting style may be right for you - but given it’s resulting in poor behaviour it doesn’t appear to be working.

Can I ask more about the face stroking, are you very clear with your dd that this is only for with your family at home? That it's not appropriate to do this with other people, because there are a lot of children who wouldn't like this behaviour.

With her being so young I'd hold her hands instead, she's not old enough to understand that some children and adults really wouldn't like this.

I work in a nursery and have worded feedback like this before BUT I know which parents I have a good relationship with and will take it in the lighthearted way it was meant. Then theres the others like yourself that I wouldn't dream of saying it to because you would be straight to the office to complain about me!

You are going to have an interesting time at school if you have this attitude.

If you can't see the issues now and address them then going to school is going to be heart breaking for you and your child.

Sometimes as a parent we are told things we don't like about our DC and it's up to you how you handle this now. Denial is dangerous

It’s typical toddler behaviour and the nursery should have the experience to deal with it.

^^ This!

Note to anyone who works with children. Never NEVER make a light-hearted throwaway comment unless you are prepared for the parents to hold a post-mortem on it. If you find yourself joshing with a parent make sure you have evidence/next steps/feedback to support any comment you make even if it was intended as a one-second interaction. 'Hello' and 'Goodbye' are probably safe enough.

You don't believe in the child saying sorry?

You lost me there.

I work with children and off the record the gentle hands thing doesn't work. Dominant kids will push and bully with impunity knowing that they'll just get a wishy-washy 'gentle hands' talking to.

Honestly, what will happen to children like yours is one day another child will hit them back or bite them and then you'll be all up in arms wanting to know why your little angel was hurt.

Groups of children have hierarchies which will ultimately sort themselves out regardless of whatever approach adults use.

When your child gets hurt and you ask what's going to be done about it, the answer you'll get is we showed the other child gentle hands and made them say sorry. It cuts both ways.

OP, you should be teaching your 19-month old that she's not allowed to push or hit other children. If you don't teach her that now, you'll have a lot of problems later on.
In my DS's class, there is a boy that's always been very very difficult. I am not saying your DD is anywhere near this boy in terms of violent behaviour.
This example I'm about to give is just an extreme example of what happens when mum and dad are super tolerant and discipline positively without even taking a firm tone to say "no" to their child.

This boy from my DS's class has been regularly hitting other children for over 2 years (they are 4 yo now), snatching toys, not sharing, running out of the class and hiding somewhere, so then 15 minutes are dedicated to this boy instead of the class activity, etc. As soon as they were 3 yo, moms of all the girls told them not to play with this boy, and they all started ignoring him and telling him they didn't want to play with him. So the ill-behaved boy started "playing" exclusively with the smallest and youngest boy in class - literally started bullying him regularly (I know they are very young, but it was a very manipulative behaviour). The mom of the small bullied boy was desperate.
It's a small private school and all the parents know each other, there is this spirit to try and get along etc. One afternoon, the bully's mom (who always uses her soft voice to discipline her child) literally invited themselves over at ours. I think she wanted to try to get my DS to become friends with her DS, because my DS was one of the few kids in the class that was "neutral", neither bullied by him nor ignoring him completely. I think it's because my DS is taller than the other boys. So we had 2 playdates. At ours my DS didn't play with the boy, because this boy played by himself, and also tried to hit a few times, but since we were keeping an eye on them all the time, it didn't escalate.

The second playdate we went over to theirs. The little boy would sneak and pinch my DS a few times (it was clear to me and the mom of the other child also present at the playdate, only the little bully's mom couldn't see it). My DS would start crying immediatelly and hitting back angrily in the way any of us would hit back if being attacked. Now, the important thing is this never happens with other playdates we have, when we have playdates with other children it goes smoothly with maybe someone crying over something, but nobody hits anyone, they are 4 yo. they are not so small anymore.

The final drop was when this little boy took my DS and the other child that was on the playdate out of the adults' sight, and suddenly we heard them all screaming. Turns out he had told my DS to hit the other child, and if he didn't do it, then he would hit my DS. My DS and this other child had had quiet a few playdates together and there had never been any hitting involved.
Soon after, we left the playdate. This mom&dad and their "soft voice" discipline have done no favours to their child. Their child will have no friends, nobody wants to play with him in school, nobody wants to meet him for a playdate. We certainly will not be seeing them after school any more.

mamalunn I don't it was luck tbh. Both have always been told 'no' and neither have ever been known to push/snatch. Both of mine are fussy eaters, so I think there are some things I have done right and some not. I;m definitely not perfect. I agree the nursery worker shouldn't have said what they did - but maybe she was genuinely worn out & made a mistake by saying that.
I agree with some other posters who have said that maybe 2 short afternoons isn't enough? If she is used to 1-1 with the GP then it might all seem a bit loud? So more regular sessions might get her more used to it? One thing that helped mine when they were little was things like gymnastics class - so they learn to wait their turn and not push in etc.. Maybe if the GP would be willing to take her it might be good to sign her up for something similar?
We also used a childminder as there are far fewer kids in that setting - maybe she might like that better? Some are excellent & mine was. It was a good stepping stone to nursery.

Aside from this, I really don’t believe she is a bad child or her behaviour is anything but a stress response.

Which is exactly what the nursery worker said, albeit phrasing it maybe less than ideally.

It sounds to me like an informal chatty comment, and one I wouldn't think twice about. When I was using childcare, I felt most comfortable leaving my children with people whom I had an warm, informal, friendly relationship with. But I guess that's not for everyone. You perhaps feel comfortable with a more distant, we're-definitely-not-friends relationship with the people who look after your DD. Neither of those is wrong but there does seem to be a mismatch in the relationship between you and your DD's carer.

It sounds as though you wanted her to tell you why your DD was stressed enough to push and snatch yesterday. But in turn, perhaps she had hoped your DH would be able to shed some light on the reasons why. If it was that your DD was overtired (after all this is one scenario that you've already identified as being one that might cause your DD to behave less than ideally), and given she is only at nursery for a morning, it is quite likely to be the result of something that has happened at home - a bad night's sleep for example, a busy day the day before. Just because the pushing and snatching happened at nursery, it doesn't mean that the underlying cause happened there and the staff will be able to identify it.

Thanks for input everyone whose posted.

She goes to nursery two mornings per week. On Monday she goes to Rhythm Time in the morning and Tumble Tots in the afternoon with her nana, she has a quiet day on Tuesday with her nana, on Wednesday she sleeps over at her other nana’s, and spends time with her two cousins (2 and 4), when she is there I know she doesn’t sleep well for a number of factors, Thursday morning she goes to nursery and has baby ballet in the afternoon with me, Friday morning she goes to nursery and we choose a different activity in the afternoon or have a quiet afternoon, ready for a family weekend. Groups/activities are planned so that she is spending time with lots of other children around her age so she has opportunity to practice her social skills.

We have only seen her react badly to other children a very few times. She only started pushing her cousins recently, when she was pushed first or snatched from. But this is NOT a regular occurrence.

I have never seen her behave badly in her classes, we had a class everyday whilst I was on maternity and since I’ve returned to work I’ve taken her to classes/groups/activities on my afternoons off and weekends and I haven’t seen this behaviour.

I understand that some of the comments are well meaning but I think some are looking for a reaction. Positive parenting doesn’t mean I’m letting her get away with things, to be honest I’ve had to deal with very few occasions of her bad behaviour as she doesn’t behave like this in my company or with her nana when she’s in groups/classes.

Yes I’ll take on board some of the comments that we need to respond to her consistently, I will also ask her nana to do the same.

I was looking at putting her in nursery two additional mornings when I can afford it, I think this will help nursery staff to build a better relationship with her and vice versa, give her more consistent care, etc. I am not averse to nursery at all, there has just been a few times where I’ve thought that their provision could have been better for various reasons.

I’ve also spoken to her other Nana and asked for her to have her sleep over Tuesday nights, if at all, as she doesn’t sleep well there and likely doesn’t get enough sleep for the following day which she attends nursery. So if she sleeps over Tuesday nights (or not), then spends the day with her nana, but comes hope in time for her bedtime routine then I can rule out lack of sleep for any behaviour which isn’t acceptable. She always seems more tired on a Thursday whether she’s in nursery or not, and in the past few weeks, keyworkers have noted that she’s been “emotional” on Thursdays.

In that case, OP, I would suspect that sleeping over at Nana's the night before nursery is less than ideal but that, at the very least, whoever drops her at nursery on Thursday morning needs to be very clear with the staff that she is likely to be tired and may need to nap earlier or for longer. It will be harder for the staff to identify the cause of her 'bad mood' and care accordingly if they don't have all the information. You know she sleeps badly at nana's, they don't.

I think you’re perhaps being a bit sensitive about it, most kids are hard work some days. It’s good that the nursery are letting you know.
Usually when we over react it’s because we have other issues going on or we’re not feeling confident about that particular situation or worried about it anyway. So possibly you’re feeling something isn’t quite right about the nursery or worried about your DDs behaviour or something and the comment has caused you to feel more upset that usual.

It sounds like your DD has a lot going on, 2 set of grandparents minding her, sleepovers plus nursery. Everyone is probably using different discipline which could be confusing to her.

Like you, I prefer not to use naughty steps, time out, etc but I’m not sure that telling her no for hitting/snatching/pushing them stroking her hands/face to re-inforce ‘be gentle’ is the right message really. It’s quite a lot of different things and quite confusing for her.

Stroking isn’t really what we or children would do in that type of situation and lots of kids really hate being stroked/touched while they are playing so it’s probably not the best thing to be modelling to her as she will copy which could then cause other kids to hit back or be cross with her or just think it’s strange that she’s stroking them!

I would probably tell her no hitting/pushing quite firmly and remove her from the situation but keep her with you. It doesn’t have to be for very long at that age.

You can also show her other ways to deal with it, so instead of modelling stroking her face you can model putting your hand out for a toy and saying ‘can I have a turn please’ or just ‘turn please’ depending on her speech. Or model saying ‘don’t snatch’ to the other child instead of hitting them. Or offering the other child a different toy if they try to snatch.
If you can pre-empt, even better, so if you see another child about to snatch a toy from her, get your DD to give them a different toy and say ‘there you go’. Your DD will soon copy. Far better than her copying stroking faces in that situation! Just do what you would like her to eventually do and she will get the hang of it.

Why does she have to do any sleepovers. I’m not surprised she’s knackered with all of that scheduled

@LittleBearPad she goes for sleepovers because she doesn’t see much of her other Nana, my partners Mum, whereas she sees my mum around four days per week. I have previously spoken with my partner about ending this arrangement because I don’t think she respects our little one’s bedtime, always telling us that we are unfair putting her to bed at 7 every night, because she’s always up until 7.30 at least at her house! She can barely make it until 7 most nights at home! She’s also disregarded our wishes on a range of other things like no juice (she’s given her fruit shoot hydro as they are clear like water). I know that it’s a grandparent’s joy to spoil their grandchildren so I've let it slide so far.

But it’s nursery that’s the problem 🙄🙄🙄

@NameChange30 Back again for a dig? Love it