Daycare say that my toddler is hard work??

[Mamalunn95]

My partner has just dropped our 19 month old daughter off at daycare which she has now attended for 11 months part time (two half days per week currently). One of the workers in the room has said to him: “I hope C is in a better mood today, she was really hard work yesterday.” Apparently she said it in a quite lighthearted way but to me this isn’t something a nursery worker should say to a parent. I find it quite hard leaving her as it is without the added anxiety that the nursery workers think she is difficult and that I am unable to control her behaviour...

When I collected her yesterday they said that she had been pushing other children and trying to take toys which she wants off them. My understanding as CACHE Level 3 Early Years Educator is that this developmentally appropriate. Although I have only seen her behave this way with her cousins when they are really in her space or snatching from her, she will push them or lash out and we respond to this without negative discipline such as time out. For example, if she becomes overwhelmed and lashes out then we will ask if she remembers how to be gentle and then show her how to be gentle again by stroking her face or our face with her hand and she responds well to this. We also are aware of potential triggers for her which make her behave in an unacceptable way. I think this is what nursery workers should be focusing on rather than telling us she is difficult. If she was a child in my class I would complete repeated observations from when she is behaving unacceptably to identify potential triggers as we know that babies do not have the intention to upset others.

Am I being unreasonable to be offended by this? Or think that it was inappropriate for the worker to make a comment like this?

I’m going to ask to see their discipline policy as I think they use timeouts for the two year old room, which is something my partner and I don’t agree with.

What’s your opinion?

@Yabbers As I've said before that’s an example of how we deal with behaviour at home I don’t expect her keyworker to stroke her face and ignore the other children.

I would check what they mean by time outs. One of the techniques our nursery uses for unacceptable behaviour (hitting, etc) is to remove the child from the situation to sit with their key worker reading or talking or singing, to give them a chance to calm down, defuse the situation, and as they they learn the natural consequences of their actions (if you are unkind to someone, you don’t get to keep playing with them.)

making them feel shame

Shame isn’t recognised as a feeling until a child is three or four. Reading “Why love matters”, or any of the Brene Brown books gives the reasons as to how to brain develops and when children start recognising it. Guilt/Regret don’t come in until age 7-8

At her age, she would be in a time-out for one minute, that is all.

Many settings use a cushion or chair next to a member of staff as the period of time is so short.

It isn't as if she is being made to stand in a room on her own for ten minutes.

Could you maybe talk to the nursery staff and verify the length of their time-outs and ask where the child is expected to stay in time-out.

If it is just one minute next to the staff member so your DD can just be removed from the situation and told in just one sentence why that has happened, do you think that you would be able to accept that?

On the other hand if she is being talked to for five minutes about the situation and put in time-out far away for ten minutes then you need to say to them that it is not acceptable. (I am so sure that they aren't doing this anyway)

@Thatstheendofmytether
I agree that I think it is confusing for the DD as mixed signals are being given

I work with people at the other end of the spectrum who have never been taught respect or disclipline by parents who either don't care or who assumed their child would grow up decent without being taught decency. They are mixed right in with those who were brought up at the other end of the spectrum and physically abused emotionally neglected and the rest. From what I see both extremes are equally as bad in making children entitled and above the rules. There is a happy middle ground for this, don't teach a child to know their rights teach a child to be nice and know the rules.

I agree with possitive behavioural techniques but it tends to be practised ineffectively. I’m not sure how stroking her face will show her how to ask for toys nicely. You need to demonstrate the actual skill, she won’t be able to understand and generalise ‘gentleness’. You sound like one ‘those’ parents who’s precious darling is allowed to push, hit and snatch and our children are fodder because you don’t want to damage your dd’s self esteem.

The article in Time magazine was misconstrued and the authors issued a statement not long after it was published clarifying their position on time-outs.

They actually agree with the APPROPRIATE use of time-outs,

@ThatsWotSheSaid stroking her face to demonstrate the appropriate way to touch another person, not for every aspect of behaviour

@Persiancatlady Yes I’ve seen that but there’s still many professionals who don’t advocate the use of timeouts for the same reasons (and I don’t class sitting with a carer as a timeout, to me that would be a time in re. Janet Lansbury and Sarah Ockwell-Smith)

I understand that but you said she hits when toys are taken from her. Are you expecting her to stroke the other child’s face? She won’t undersand the connection. But it will distract her and probably calm her down so it solves the immediate problem. However you are dressing it up as you winning parenting and it sounds sanctimonious.

I feel that I am wasting my time here as you just want to educate us all as we don't understand children and childcare as much as you do.

It is a shame as like PP have said, MN can be a really great place yo get advice and discuss issues.

@ThatsWotSheSaid I don’t claim to be winning parenting at all. The main point of my post was to work out whether I should expect nursery workers to refer to my child as difficult or not, whether lightheartedly or in all seriousness, as it’s not something I would do myself. I’m happy with the way we discipline my child but I know that other parents have their own ways. I will quite openly say that my baby isn’t a baby anymore- she’s definitely a toddler now and resting boundaries etc. I clearly don’t have all the answers but this is the last time I ask on Mumsnet!

All I can see is PP telling me that I’m wrong and misconstruing my OP and telling me that stroking my daughter’s face is going to make her into an entitled brat so not too much openness to discussion from other posters (apart from a few). Can you blame me for being defensive?

@Mamalunn95
I agree with your post. I too have worked with children and don't think that this was a professional approach. I wouldn't like to hear this being said about my daughter either, because she's a baby/toddler at the end of the day and the staff should be helping her overcome such common obstacles as it's their job to do so and not complain about it, basically.

Okay, IMO no the nursery worker was tactless and unprofessional. If she has actual concerns she should of phrased it something like ‘dd was overwhelmed yesterday and finding it hard to regulate her emotions’. But most nursery workers are young underpaid and over worked so I don’t expect too much TBH.

Thanks for your response @yestocheesecake My partner and I both work full time and thankfully have parents who are happy to look after DD Monday to Wednesday, but it is a financial burden really to send her to nursery. It’s not the cheapest nursery in the area as from our open day etc it seemed to be worth the money and clearly for the price we pay we would expect professionalism from the staff (and so far we have received it). I think she does need to spend more time in daycare, since I can’t force her grandparents to take her places to socialise, but I think I need to have another look at what other settings are available (and affordable)

@ThatsWotSheSaid I think phrasing it that way opens up a communication between the worker and parent to come to a joint solution. My partner (who she spoke to this morning) felt very upset and defensive after leaving her, what could he do? Obviously we hate the idea that she’s been upsetting other children but we can’t stay home from work to go sit in nursery with her to observe how she’s behaving- because we don’t see this side of her unless she is really tired.

Just because behaviour is normal doesn't mean it's allowable. You can parent any way you like, that's your business, but your training doesn't mean you will get everything right all the time. There are lots of very experienced parents on here, some of whom are childcare workers/teachers/behavioural specialists so it might help if you take on board some of the advice you are given instead of being so set in your thinking. I think you are taking it all too personally, your lo will sometimes behave less than perfectly, and the nursery staff are human beings who will sometimes respond less than perfectly, but it's really good for your DD to be exposed to different styles of care and it will not damage her for life. As a mum I have done lots of stuff wrong despite my very best efforts and my kids are turning out just fine. Of course if you have real concerns about the nursery, you should remove her.

I think it depends on the tone of voice Re being hard work. If DS' 121 said "oh he was hard work yesterday" with a laugh in her voice I'd probably commiserate with her or say oh he slept so bad the night before etc. Yesterday at pick up she said he'd been very delicate which was a nice way of saying he'd been a bit presciou and touchy.

Ultimately only you and DH can Dr ide if their discipline, appellant to parents suits your needs and if not then I'd start looking around at other childcare

Obviously we hate the idea that she’s been upsetting other children but we can’t stay home from work to go sit in nursery with her to observe how she’s behaving- because we don’t see this side of her unless she is really tired.

Why do you keep saying this? No-one has asked you to go and sit with her in nursery. No-one would ever expect you to.

Oh god, are you one of those nursery workers who say things like 'in the industry' and give your proffesional opinion on child development and theories at every opportunity even though you are a relatively new parent? Because I've come across a few others just like this and I can well imagine the nursery worker giving a lighthearted dig to counter your perfect parenting anecdotes and rivalry.

For the record, I also have a CACHE level 3, but I didn't want to carry on doing that after I'd had my own children.

And when you collected her yesterday and they said she had been pushing other children and snatching toys, what did they say they had done in the way of correcting her behaviour?

I'm really surprised that people think it's fine for nursery staff to describe a child to be "doing my nut in" or "being hard work" to the parents.

I find that really unprofessional because it makes it about the staff (ie how they've felt about it) rather than the child.

Using phrases like "she's not been herself" "she's been quite upset/unsettled, not been sharing etc" are much more helpful, along with suggestions for what the parents and staff can do together to help improve behaviour.

OP - I would discuss your concerns with the nursery manager to see if you can find a way forward. Otherwise I think I'd look for alternative childcare.

Am I being unreasonable to be offended by this? Or think that it was inappropriate for the worker to make a comment like this?

Your child does indeed sound hard work. It was said in a light hearted way and I think you are being
over sensitive .
I was told that about DS2, who was bloody hard work at times. I just smiled and said 'tell me about it!!!'