Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I have a question 🙋🏻‍♀️

It's actually from my teenager, who is hoping to become a professional ballet dancer.

She asks if girls (or for that matter, boys!) from orthodox Jewish families are allowed to do ballet classes?

She asks this because of the many responses about modest dress and obviously a leotard and tights don't fit the modest dress code.

We have been googling on this, and it's something thats being written about.

But day to day, if growing up in an orthodox Jewish family, are such things as dancing classical ballet, doing gymnastics, athletics not allowed for a child/teenager/young adult?

Have read both threads in their entirety, thanks to all the posters for such interesting explanations.

This is more of a general wonder what you think than an exact question, but I am curious about the extent to which taboos around interacting with the other sex can be counter productive?

I have male friends and friend’s boyfriends who I am close to and fond of in a way that would make any erotic situation feel almost incestuous. And I have spent time in a culture with much more rigid division and modesty rules, and observed that very small interactions between men and women could take on a lot of significance and ‘charge.’ A lot of eroticism is related to social barriers, and maintaining distance can allow for fantasies that are very disconnected from real life to be elaborated and maintained.

Obviously it depends on personality and many other factors, but I think without imperfect and human male friends who I can be socially intimate with I’d probably be a miserable serial fantasist at risk of divorce or affair, rather than the happily monogamous person I am. Maybe families are large enough that people have enough siblings and cousins to demystify the other sex?

@jewishorthomum he was an upstanding member of his community. On paper. Not a fringe group.

However ultra orthodox religious people have all the infallibilities that other human beings have I suppose

Thank you very much to all those who have kindly taken the time to share their knowledge and insight into Judaism. Former RS teacher so I’ve found it fascinating!

My question is related to the passing on of the Jewish religion through the matrilineal line. With the advent of ancestry DNA testing kits to determine your ancestry, and companies such as Ancestry DNA claiming their test can identify Ashkenazi/European Jewish heritage, would a person who has Jewish heritage they were unaware of or passed through patrilineal descent be recognised as Jewish if they felt they wanted to practice the faith? The matrilineal descent rule obviously precedes advances in DNA testing!

Thank you.

@sadienurse2
Jewish life is very expensive. Kosher food is expensive, modest clothes are expensive. But there are many charity organisations to help those who are struggling with living costs.

In orthodox society (as with any) there are always a ratio of teenagers who rebel, the majority of those who rebel and level the faith do return after a few years. I was in a orthodox high school. We had 60 girls in my year. I know that 8 struggled in religious observance as teenagers and tested the waters. Of those 8, five are now once again orthodox (some modern orthodox). 3 no longer practice Judaism at all. One married a non Jew.

In theory girls can dance and do gymnastics/acrobatics wearing leotards, as long as it's a female only group. In practice, such groups aren't so easy to find.

Add to that the fact that many orthodox families will not want their daughters to dance with non-Jewish girls, for fear of being exposed to things they're sheltered from at home, and you won't find many frum ballet dancers.

I don't know about Spotify, but there is a lot on Youtube - enormous amount - including some songs sung by women for women and girls only (they ask you to please respect and not listen if you are not female). All the israeli stuff is on there - but I don't know how you find it if you can't type Hebrew - and also what i like about it are the allusions, which you would struggle to pick up if a) you don't know the language and b) you don't know the texts they are referring to and how they have cross referenced. The stuff in English tends to be a bit shmaltzy and a bit cringy, to be honest, at least to me, although some of it is sweet (cute kids - especially some of the women and girls only music).

I'm going to ask my question from the last thread again. Third time lucky.
Do you use bedikot cloths?
Have you ever shown a bedikot cloth to a rabbi, for a decision on a questionable stain?
If you have, how does this tie in with modesty? I cannot imagine willingly showing the equivalent of a used tampon to a man.

Jewish law is very specific about the criteria for being Jewish, so no, dna testing wouldn't matter.

Fab, thanks for this. Ill
look it up, it sounds fascinating.

@jewishorthomum thanks for OKing the new thread, and for doing the first one😀

@Fink I'm going to do a general roundup on conversion which hopefully answers you too.

For Orthodox Jews, conversion is allowed but not something we actively go out and encourage others to do. As the first thread explained, there are several reasons for this. You can convert, but it is not an easy process.

Converts have existed throughout Jewish history, and are very much seen as following in the footsteps of Avraham and Sarah. We are supposed to be treated with love and respect, and there are rules about shaming a convert or reminding them of their past. (Jews are not perfect, and sadly this is one Jewish standard that people sometimes fail to live up to).

These days, conversion is a 'way in' to the Jewish community for those not born to a Jewish mother. Some do it simply on principle, because we felt called to. Some are in a relationship or already married to a Jew and want to convert for their partner's/family's sake. Some have a Jewish father or other ancestry and want to make sure they are fully accepted as part of the Jewish community. And in some cases a person can't fully prove their Jewish status (kinda like losing their passport, I guess?), and go through a conversion to regularise their status - this is usually kept to the ritual itself if they are already fully observing Jewish practices like Shabbat, keeping kosher etc.

You need to apply to a Beth Din or religious court, who will oversee the process. The thing about 'turning away three times' these days is really just a guideline - it's not set in stone. The first time I wrote to the Beth Din, I got a standard letter which could be paraphrased as 'Orthodox Jewish life is hard and Jews have been persecuted a lot. Are you sure you want to do this?'. After the second letter, I was invited for interview and accepted onto the process. It took 2 years to complete (which is the quick end) BUT by that point I had been living a Jewish lifestyle for nearly 10 years and was 90 per cent of the way there when I started.

During the process, men are tutored by men and women by women (generally 1 on 1 in the UK). Men and women are also expected to have a Rabbi who will sponsor them through the process and be their port of call for questions during and after the process. This is because an important part of conversion these days is integrating into an active Orthodox community, and part of that is having a (professional) relationship with at least one Rabbi for guidance.

The Beth Din will decide when you are ready to go through the actual conversion ritual which makes you Jewish. This is circumcision (men only), immersion in a mikveh (men and women), and a commitment to take on and keep the Jewish commandments (mitzvot). Part of showing this commitment is making a verbal declaration out loud in the mikveh just before you immerse. The entire ritual is done in front of the Beth Din (women have something covering them for modesty!).

Post-conversion, for all practical purposes a convert is like any other Jew and should be treated as such. However, there are some specific laws which only apply to converts. Socially, depending on their background converts may also have additional challenges fitting into the community and navigating life events (which is why integration is so important).

I think the question about a Kohen (male) not marrying a female convert was answered in the first thread. Tbh it's a very difficult question to answer but if a follow-up is needed I will try.

Every frum woman uses bedika cloths, and in occasion has to show them to a rabbi. Many times the husband can take it, and most rabbis have letterbox service, where you drop it in and they will let you know.

It might be helpful to frame it as going to a gynaecologist and showing/discussing intimate parts.

That said - Dancing with Louise teaches ballet to girls in London (and I am sure there are equivalents in the big communities in the US and in Israel). I have been to some of their shows (for women and girls only) - they can pack out the Arts Depot. I thought the standard looked quite high to me (but I am not expert) - although some of it is amusing. There was some sort of dance (probably a famous one) that was clearly supposed to be footmen and maids - only they were all maids - and they had maids lifting other maids - ie girls dressed as girls doing what is probably the boys part. I assume she has to chorograph it a bit herself

I forgot to add - conversion purely for marriage is discouraged. But often a Beth Din will work with a candidate who also has a genuine interest in Judaism. The test they usually apply is, if the relationship with the Jewish partner were to end, whether the candidate would still carry on living as a Jew for its own sake.

Often the categories I set out above also overlap.

I was asking the women on the thread.

One of the reasons that in the modern Orthodox world there are now increasing numbers of yoetzet's - women trained in these halachot to whom you can turn and who you can deal with, so you don't need to go to a man. They have a very high level of training (I think four years), and rabbis to back them up, but it is a much more pleasant experience dealing with a women (done both).

Adding to the conversion question, which was actually already answered in the first thread, conversion is a bell that can't be unrung. Since there is zero obligation for a non-Jew to convert, and conversely a Jew not keeping the Torah is a very grave issue, the rabbis want to be 100% the potential convert is willing and able to stick to it. Which is why the process is lengthy and difficult.

Thank you. I have always thought it was a presumption on the part of rabbis to be pronouncing on the supposed origin of any stain which originates from the female general tract.
Men do not have periods, after all.
I wouldn't have any faith in a man's decision on such a question. They do not have the lived experience necessary.

Thank you for the replies to my question. I have a couple more questions for you
Are there any specific parts of chassidic Judaism that really aren’t for you?
and what is your favourite part of being an Orthodox Jew?

Following

The question is basically whether the stain is of the shade and size that's problematic or not. You need eyes and experience to rule on that, not periods.

I have a Shabbat question. If it’s just a regular Friday (ie not a festival or holy day) do you have a set meal, or eat what you fancy? And on Saturday do you do anything special, or is it just time to relax and rest?

To be fair, to be the kind of rabbi who answers these questions, you need serious training by a rabbi who has a lot of experience (it is called shimush). I knew somebody who did shimush, and he sat in on telephone calls and was instructed to look at mounds and mounds of bedika cloths under supervision and say what the thought and get guided, it took years. My DS is training to be a doctor, he could be one day helping you give birth, he will never have the experience of going through it, but hopefully he will have the empathy, and be trained properly, to be able to do what he needs to do. For my second and third birth they were all women (midwives and doctors) - except for the consultant that sewed me up after the tear from DS2 - I didn't get any choice about that, and I gather he did a good job. For DS1 the anethetist was male (had a epidural) and then the doctor who used the vontuse was male. Was nicer when it was all female, but the most important thing was that I and my DC were delivered safe and well.

I don't want to publicly bash a community so I won't go into detail, but every sector/society has their strong points and their weaknesses.

My favourite parts of orthodoxy is probably the importance joy and value we find in family life.
Followed by the supportive community infrastructure we have.
Also my connection with God and the way my life runs according to the Torah (with its beauty and its challenges) gives me a lot of purpose.

So women would, in fact, be better placed to rule on such stains.