Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I've discovered a few answers for this.

The most obvious one is that men are thanking God that they don’t have to go through pregnancy, birth and menstruation which we know causes a lot of physical and hormonal turmoil.

Another explanation given is that women have less commandments than men. Of the 613, women are exempt from most time specific commandments. (This is the reason women are not obligated to pray in synagogue 3 times daily.) For this men are thanking God for not making them a woman.

Thank you @amcha and @mirah2 for your answers. I think lots of non-jews learned a lot from this thread and previous. My last question before we reach 40 pages again, is, did Jewish mums learn anything or had any food for thought from this discourse? What are your biggest takeaways?

I think my biggest take-away is how many people (women) seem interested - in a really nice, genuine way - and that we actually managed to have this discussion without the anti-semites dominating and derailing the thread - I totally would not have predicted that, and I am still rather surprised, I do keep coming on here and wondering when the hostile comments will start. Sometimes it feels like all the news outside the community is of antisemitism and more antisemitism, and it just makes you want ot withdraw into your bubble and self nuture and just hope it disappears, except for those brave fighters who go out and challenge and challenge and challenge on our behalf (my DS is doing that on campus, and it is exhausting). I guess thanks for all being so nice, it is so heartwarming. We really do feel so alone sometimes.

That’s a lovely message @amcha. I think there is real affection from a lot of us non Jews for our Jewish community here. Notwithstanding that, I hear what you say re the hostility and on campus I can well imagine it being exhausting so kudos to your son.

You're not alone, @amcha , please understand that. The recent Diane Abbott thread contained some dreadful posts, I wasn't the only one challenging and reporting them. We have to be vigilant, and fight antisemitism, not just leave it to Jewish people.

Absolutely. Ok, I’ll tell you something that I find funny. Every time I mention Judaism, usually something related to my Jewish neighbors, to my Mom, she starts saying how much she loves Jewish people.

She’s a very sweet and sincere person, but I always worry she’s going to start that up when she meets someone and make them feel uncomfortable and “othered”. She finally fussed at me and basically said she’s not an idiot.

I mentioned this thread and she started all over again.

The interest and genuine curiosity has amazed me.
I mean, I started this thread whilst waiting to be called in for an appointment to kill time and I thought I'd get maybe a handful of questions. Two full threads filled with respectful questions is way beyond what I expected and so unbelievable!

Its been educational on so many levels. I've learnt a whole load of fascinating things about other religions, Christianity and Islam. And I've even learnt a bunch of new things about my own religion that I wasn't aware of.
I've also really appreciated the way we have agreed to disagree on some points. Its shown me that the key to peace is to focus on the things that unite us, rather than our differences.
Thanks MN for giving us this opportunity and to everyone who interacted. Its been a fascinating learning experience.❤

Hi 👋
I have absolutely loved these threads and hope there is a part 3! I have had a recent bereavement and these threads have distracted me from that so I am very grateful.

I have a few questions if that's ok.

Would someone who wasn't Jewish but wore a star of David necklace cause offence? My gran always wore one and I wondered how that would have come across? There was a family story which indicated we might have Jewish heritage and that was confirmed when I took a genealogy DNA test a few years ago and my results came back as me having Ashkenazi DNA alongside my viking DNA.

Also do you wear fancy jewelry and engagement/wedding rings? I know modesty is important but would flash diamonds etc be allowed?

Lastly, this question was covered slightly in the last thread with the unintentional offensive phrase used re black people but to add to it I wondered if racism, prejudice, bullying etc was covered in Jewish schools? I know a lot of communities are insular but modern Britain means people will meet those of other ethnicities etc even if just passing in the street. It just made me think as the comment on the last thread (which I know was acknowledged and apologied for and became a learning point so I am in no way picking on that) and also a photo I saw a few years ago of a young girl dressed for a festival as a Chinese person (with inappropriate make up) seems like there a lack of understanding of prejudice faced by others.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to answer.

Agreed with this! I also keep wondering if @jewishorthomum @amcha @EllaDisenchanted and any of the other Jewish posters here are people I will end up meeting (or have already met!) in real life - I had no idea there were so many of us on MN 😀

V quickly as I'm out and need to head home:

Star of David necklace - not a religious symbol as such so no problem, ppl might wonder if you are Jewish but with your heritage can understand why you are interested.

Fancy rings - really down to the particular community and the individual tbh.

Schools - the Board of Deputies report on racial attitudes in the community which I linked to early in this thread covers this. My eldest has only just started school so no real personal experience - but they are very hot on good behaviour towards each other in general. But I'm not in the right part of the community to really comment.

I'm sorry for your loss, but glad we've been able to lift your spirits somewhat.

I want to add my thanks. It was really interesting and I learned a lot. It has also made me reflect more on my own faith.

Thank you for these threads. They have been fascinating to read. I had a couple of friends who were Jewish (of various traditions) as a teenager but unfortunately we lost touch. I've tried catching up with the thread but lost my place a couple of times so apologies if this has been asked already, and it's a bit of a random one.

During covid lockdowns places of worship were closed so what happened with things you were obligated to do such as praying physically at the synagogue, and visiting the mikvah pool etc? Were these exempt from closure?

@Hullobaby Sorry for your loss.

I'll address the question whether racism, prejudice, bullying etc was covered in Jewish schools. I was the one who erred here., and I'm so embarrassed and really regretful about it.

This is a big area where I think many Orthodox schools could improve on.
To elaborate, (ultra) Orthodox schools do teach the importance of respecting others, even those who are look a little different etc. Bullying and talking badly about others is wholly unaccepted.

They teach it as a concept, but they don't really elaborate on the nuances of it. eg. orthodox schools would not explain which language is hurtful and what would be the correct terminology.
So this is an area where there is ignorance and room for improvement.

The Covid synagogue set up was legendary. Chairs and tables were set up in random outdoor spaces like gardens and parking lots, and with social distancing enforced, the men would pray outdoors. The weather was gorgeous that year so that helped.
When things were really bad even these outdoor synagogues were closed.

I've got a lot of pages to catch up on but want to say thank you to both OP's as well as all the other women - Jewish and non-Jewish - who contributed to these threads. So informative and good natured (apart from you-know-who and his many guises). When Mumsnet shines it really shines!

Looking forward to reading @NoHaudinMaWheest's thread now.

Do you have any idea why?

Is it because you mostly keep yourselves to yourselves, so less opportunity to offend others ?

To be fair , even in state schools we don't really specify offensive terms . It tends to be a reactive conversation after a child said something rather than we don't use x,y,z. But there are plenty of discussions about differences(sex,race,religion,sexual orientation etc.) and acceptance,respect, debating in an appropriate manner ,listening to opposing views and so on.

This reminds me, is PE part of the curriculum in Jewish Orthodox schools?

How do you deal with girls periods? Do you explain in advance what is coming,why,what is happening etc? Or is it an after the fact conversation? How detailed is it?

I'm a Buddhist not a Christian (you can all hiss at me if you like 😉) but I've read enough theology to understand that attempts to understand and explain the trinity has caused so much trouble, war and schism in the past that it's doubtful is even Mumsnet can sort it out!

I think the reason why we don't go into details is because as you said there aren't many opportunities for these teaching moments.
I am generalising, and some schools are better at this than others.
Many ultra orthodox schools are private schools and are only attended by members of the communities. And although of course, there are differences amongst us, there isn't usually much variation in ethnicity, resulting in this ignorance. But, without excusing any offenses; they are largely due to this ignorance and not ill intent.

However regarding acceptance, respect, debating in an appropriate manner, listening to opposing views and so on I think we are pretty decent at this.

PE is part of the curriculum in most orthodox schools. Perhaps not in the Chassidic schools. I don't know.

@samG76 "FWIW, I don't think the issue is just graven images - it's also the hierarchy of people acting as some sort of intercessor - priests, saints, BVM, etc. Neither Jews not Muslims have this idea. There is just the divine and humans. Note that some extreme Chassidic groups do venerate their leaders (alive and dead) and are regularly accused of idolatry by their opponents."

Just for info, many Christian denominations don't have the hierarchy of intercessors either. It was one of the root causes of the reformation and is still a big distinction between Protestant and Catholic schools of thought.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus
Telling girls about their period is left up to their parents. I remember my mum sitting me down and talking about it all when I was maybe 8 or 9. I remember being feeling very grown up and excited for it to come.
I also remember when I did get my period, I was 12, my mum was all emotional and gave me a big hug and my dad congratulated me and they took me out for ice cream. Lol

That sounds lovely and very open and accepting. Well, 12 yo me would've cringed at my dad knowing.. but you know.

In my DCs schools which are more modern Orthodox, I do think all of this is covered. There was a lot on bullying, and anti-bullying, and anti bullying charities came in a lot. Also I think there was quite a bit on anti racism. Do note though, that my DCs primary school, is/was set up by someone born in India, and a lot of the DC were of middle eastern origin, or like my DC, half middle eastern, half European (it varied which half, but probably the biggest group was DC with one parent from the middle east or India, and one from Europe, in a couple of cases there was a parent from China). That meant there was a huge range of skin colours - as there are in all the middle eastern synagogues my DH frequents. In fact my DS is rather put out that he inherited the lighter skin colouring from my side (frequently nobody believes I am Sephardi given that I burn in the slightest sun) - in my DC's case, grandfather born in Egypt, great-grandfather born in Syria, several generations back great, great grandfather born in Iran, mothers side some from Turkey. The environment was such that that felt normal, they were all Jewish and that was the binding force. As mentioned, my DC are reasonably light skinned - but given the background I battle with the ethnic origin forms - what do I call them? But in school it was a complete spectrum, and I think that in that particular bubble there was no sense that skin colour carried with it any stigma - it was one more thing that was just weird about the outside world. Once upon a time there might have been some anti-Sephardi prejudice in the High School they went to, but at least in Modern Orthodox circles that has gone, and my DH is very proud of his Sephardi/Edot HaMizrach heritage as are my DC. Not sure about in ultra Orthodox circles though which are much more ethnically tight.

hello @mirah2, definitely intriguing... 😅I wonder if there are more of us lurking?!

@Betaalpha interesting question. For me it was a contrast with the last Jewish AMA that I joined in with, where I felt attacked at times. I feel very encouraged that here we were able to engage in positive dialogue about our faith. I really appreciated the way people listened respectfully to our side, even if they didn't agree (which is fair enough!), and hope to learn from that myself.
I think the degree to which we are seen as one homogenous entity did surprise me a bit, which maybe is something that needs thinking about away from an anonymous platform like mumsnet.

In my primary school in Year 6 we had a lesson where the teacher came in and taught the girls about periods. The boys were very curious!

My mum also separately taught me.