Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

It is?

Is Charedi the same as Hassidic? (Excuse my ignorance)

I have been thinking of Surplus, too.
Exactly the same stuff.
Won't go away, although clearly not wanted.
Lone male among women, determined to answer everything.

How she is viewed will largely depends on what community this Jewish man is a part of. If he is unaffiliated with a religious Jewish community then her being not Jewish may be seen as irrelevant.

@Fink Racism answer. I'm going to tread very carefully here because I don't want to publicly bash my own community too much.

Jews are not perfect. There are always 'bad apples' in every community. Sadly, sometimes there are also social trends or attitudes in parts of the Jewish community which are accepted or not called out as much as they should be. This means that we do not always live up to the standards of our own religion - that all humans are created 'b'tzelem Elokim' (in G-d's image).

There is also a diverse range of Jews in the community. Most UK Jews are Ashkenazi (although that doesn't equal white-skinned - many can look Mediterranean or Middle Eastern). Some are Sephardi, Mizrachi (from Iraq/Iran and further East) or Yemen and therefore have darker skin. To a non-Jew, I look mostly South Asian - to a Jew, I would pass for Mizrachi or Yemenite. The groups who would stand out the most within the UK community as 'different' or 'other' are Black or East Asian Jews.

I have not personally experienced much racism within the Orthodox Jewish community. Many Jews are sensitive to prejudice, and will call out this out in others when they recognise what is going on. However, a couple of years back the Board of Deputies did a report on racism in the Jewish community (full disclosure - I took part, with some reservations). The report is here.

https://bod.org.uk/bod-news/board-of-deputies-publishes-landmark-report-on-racial-inclusivity-in-the-jewish-community/

The major caveat is that this covered the entire Jewish community from Reform to Ultra-Orthodox. I'd say most of the participants were from the Reform to Modern/Centrist Orthodox end of the spectrum - very few would have been coming from within the Ultra-Orthodox community. But there were definitely issues around language and lack of respect flagged within some (I stress, some) sectors of the Orthodox community. From my POV, this is not good or something I am proud of. It is something we need to work on as a community.

And yes, as per one of the DA threads I totally acknowledge that this is a two-way street and that there are also very real issues with violent antisemitism from parts of the non-Jewish Black and Muslim communities (which can affect the Jewish response). I've heard several Black Jews comment that they are stuck in a hard place between these two communities, as they get stick from both sides. It doesn't affect me directly because I don't identify as Black and can 'pass' as a Mizrachi Jew. But I hear the problems.

Israel is a different story. Yes, there likely is some racism towards Ethiopians there - but the context and the background is very different to anti-black racism in the US and must not be viewed through that lens. There are also very real issues around a) integrating the Ethiopian community because the first generation were completely unexposed to a Western lifestyle until they arrived in Israel, and b) the halachic status of the Ethiopians as Jews, because geographically they 'split off' the mainstream Jewish people before Rabbinic Judaism (which is essentially what all Orthodox Jews follow today) fully developed. There also debates even within the Ethiopian Jewish community over whether some of the later immigrants to Israel were really Jewish or had assimilated out.

It's not an easy conversation to have. But I hope it helps to hear this.

There is definitely a surplus style vibe going on @TheShellBeach, you're right!

@TheShellBeach astonishing isn't it? That's there's not one of them.. but two!

Charedi is another term for ultra orthodox. Within Charedi there is (broadly) either Chassidic or Yeshivish.

Thread marker - I haven't caught up with most of the pages. I'm taking a break - when I get back, if there are other questions which haven't been answered yet I'll chip in again.

Chareidi = Orthodox.
Chassidic = Ultra ultra orthodox. The most right wing sector of orthodoxy

Ah ok, and is Hasidic and Chassidic interchangeable?

I went to ballet lessons as a child. When I studied in seminary in Jerusalem for a year I found a local class as well. There was a phase when everyone was doing zumba. There are loads of dance classes where I live now. (All Jewish classes).
You wouldn't be able to be a practicing orthodox Jew and a professional ballet dancer though, so it is just for fun. There are all women amateur Jewish theatre groups that put on shows, so there are outlets for people who enjoy this kind of thing.

@JeweyJew
I read somewhere that some believe it shouldn't be performed. Did you and your wife have one at your wedding?

Yes. The ch is equivalent to the ח in Hebrew, which is a guttural sound (similar to h as pronounce by a Russian). As there's no English equivalent, it's often translated to just h.

@jewishorthomum

Did your mother teach you about bedikot and how to perform them?
Or is it something which Jewish women learn as part of their preparation for marriage? And if so, did you have personal tuition?

Yes. Most chassidim have one (with the exception of I think Lubavitch). It's quite beautiful and emotional.

Nobody would expect you to pretend to say the prayers. Just observe the religious stuff quietly and join in with general conversation and chit chat.

@JeweyJew

"In theory girls can dance and do gymnastics/acrobatics wearing leotards, as long as it's a female only group. In practice, such groups aren't so easy to find.

Add to that the fact that many orthodox families will not want their daughters to dance with non-Jewish girls, for fear of being exposed to things they're sheltered from at home, and you won't find many frum ballet dancers."

That sounds very insular and isolating with a touch of superiority complex. Is this fair? Is this what does contribute to divisions?

Women go to 'kallah' (bridal) classes before getting married to learn all the rules around mikva, and they would be show how to do a bedika then. I had one on one tuition but some people go to group classes.

If anyone is interested there are a couple of communities on Reddit about all things jewish r:jewish and r:judaism.
Very friendly and happy to answer questions.

Add to that the fact that many orthodox families will not want their daughters to dance with non-Jewish girls, for fear of being exposed to things they're sheltered from at home

Such as what? What terrible things would Jewish girls potentially be exposed to?

Yes, I use bedika cloths. It's not a big deal to do.

Showing a cloth - Yes, on a few occasions. When I was first married, I always sent it in an envelope with my husband, and made him contact the Rabbi, there was no way I was speaking to him. I'm more used to it now although still don't love it, and will message the Rabbi myself if I need to, although I still make my husband take the cloths. Where I now live there is the option of speaking to a female Yoatzet, which is a fairly new concept (well, to me anyway!) and I really like that and would much prefer that if I needed to check a cloth.

Based on my own background in a very conservative Presbyterian denomination (Christian), I have a few questions.
Do you wear make- up or nail varnish? What about jewellery especially having pierced ears?
I understand that alcohol is ok but how is getting tipsy or drunk viewed? What about smoking?

Thanks for a very interesting thread and being prepared to talk about some very private things.

@JeweyJew how would you have dealt with the example given earlier of a women addressing an orthodox man on an aeroplane?

Have you ever been tempted by another woman?

When you've eaten a meal which contains meat, do you have to wait for a while before you can have a cup of tea or coffee afterwards (assuming you take milk)?