Page 3 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:18

DisquietintheRanks · 27/04/2023 19:09

What does Judaism say happens to you after death? Is there a belief in a soul? Heaven? Hell?

Yes we do believe in soul, heaven and hell.

Bringonthesunshineporfavor · 27/04/2023 19:18

This thread has been so interesting…have literally done absolutely nothing all afternoon apart from reading this …thank you @jewishorthomum for starting this AMA

Spudlet · 27/04/2023 19:19

Thanks for answering @jewishorthomum! It must help that there are so many options for sports kit now (skorts etc) that work with different clothing requirements 😃 Interesting that running would be a no no on Shabbos though - I think because I run primarily for headspace I see it as a ‘restful’ type of activity (well, mentally restful anyway) but I can see how it would not be within the spirit of the rules. Are any forms of exercise allowed - a gentle walk, for example, or would that also be frowned upon? (I’m just slightly quailing at the idea of a day in with DS and no tech etc - he has some SEND and like a puppy, needs to be exercised daily 😅)

cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax · 27/04/2023 19:20

MsFogi · 27/04/2023 17:35

Oh great - I was sad to see the other thread had closed! I had a lovely Jewish friend in uni who would occasionally be kind enough to invite me along to Friday night dinner with his family. I really appreciated his invitations and felt extremely privileged to be invited to share his family Friday evenings but I often look back and wonder what I 'should' have done - in my effort to be polite I would mumble along to the prayers (which clearly I did not have a clue about!!). If I am every fortunate enough to be invited to a Jewish family's home on a Friday evening what should I do during prayers and rest of the 'ceremony' - I felt a bit odd just watching. I suppose what I am asking is what do you expect from guests you invite - are you okay with them just being at the table watching during prayers?

I host people every friday night, mostly Jewish (not necessarily from very observant backgrounds) but on occasion non Jewish people too. We try and explain what is going on. Hopefully our guests are not too lost!

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:23

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 18:59

I used to know a Hasidic Jew approximately 25 years ago. We actually had an affair - and I am not Jewish, I am very firmly atheist.

So obviously I did not cover myself in glory here but in my defence I was very young I suppose

My question is ... how common do you think it is for Hasidic Jews to have affairs outside of the religion?

I don't know statistics but I'd like to think that with all the guidelines and boundaries we have in place it is a lot less common then in the secular world.
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious about how the affair came about, did you work together? Was he careful at all with gender boundaries?

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:24

Spudlet · 27/04/2023 19:19

Thanks for answering @jewishorthomum! It must help that there are so many options for sports kit now (skorts etc) that work with different clothing requirements 😃 Interesting that running would be a no no on Shabbos though - I think because I run primarily for headspace I see it as a ‘restful’ type of activity (well, mentally restful anyway) but I can see how it would not be within the spirit of the rules. Are any forms of exercise allowed - a gentle walk, for example, or would that also be frowned upon? (I’m just slightly quailing at the idea of a day in with DS and no tech etc - he has some SEND and like a puppy, needs to be exercised daily 😅)

Yes, we can walk for leisure and enjoyment but exercise with intention of a workout would be forbidden.

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 19:27

AtChoService · 27/04/2023 18:47

Who wants to bet on a documentary or reality programme on Jewish life hitting ch4 soon 🤔

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please G-d no! I always cringe so hard and won't watch😅

roundcork · 27/04/2023 19:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the request of the user.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 19:27

@jewishorthomum no, we didn't work together. I was in Manchester and I was running for a train. I ran out in front of his car and he slammed on the brakes and hopped out the car to tell me off for not looking where I was going.

I screeched at him that he was the reason I was going to miss my train and ran off.

I missed the train and was sat on the platform and he walked over and just said ' I've parked outside and I'll run you home'

I remember saying ' oh piss off, I live in Oxford' and he said 'well, maybe I like driving'

And god knows what possessed me but I got in the car, he drove me down south, and that was that.

Again, I was young. 23 or so. He was 13 years older with 6 kids.

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 19:28

sadienurse2 · 27/04/2023 17:43

Thank you so much OP for the thread. I find the ultra orthodox utterly fascinating and read lots of blogs, watch vlogs and follow ultra/orthodox Jews on social media. I think it's incredible how they are able to mobilizer and form schools, housing associations, ambulance services etc within a relatively short space of time and the vast majority seem to have no formal education.

My questions are:

Do you feel it's expensive to be Jewish? I was listening to a podcast which stated the extra costs associated with being torah observant, and by the time you've paid for schools, shul membership, kosher food and often inflated rental prices in Jewish areas that it can force people into poverty. Do the community have issues with this or is it just accepted that this is the way it is?

This is specific to the ultra orthodox - do many children/teens rebel, and how is this managed? Is this discussed widely or would it be kept hush hush? I remember reading about a Manchester rabbi who had been exposed for visiting prostitutes and the comments were from people he had gone to school with and said he had always been pushing boundaries. I assume in ultra orthodox communities conformity is very important and parents aren't keen to turn a blind eye or view it as a passing phase?

From what I've read the community in SH are very reliant on welfare benefits and the benefit cap has had a very detrimental effect. Given that large families are encouraged, are the community seeking to redress the lack of formal qualifications for the younger generation in order to get out of this poverty trap?

Do any of the posters here know personally any of the people that featured on any of the documentaries? Avi Bresler, Gabby Lock and Samuel Lobowitz (sp) from Stamford Hill, and Bernette from Manchester? All very colourful characters, I'd love to know how they are viewed by the wider community.

Thanks again OP.

I know of one of them (well their daughter anyway) and they are regarded as a colourful character!

amcha · 27/04/2023 19:29

annielou55 · 27/04/2023 19:01

I am not Jewish (catholic but non practising) and find these threads fascinating. It’s probably one of the only ones I’ve ever read all the way through (the first one).

I don’t know any Jewish people but am learning lots. The original OP in particular was very good in explaining the traditions, dating etc and how she fits it in to “normal” life, (Don’t really mean normal but can’t think of another word at the moment).

Some aspects do sound difficult for women such as the wig wearing and covering up as that seems to be at mens request and to benefit them.

This may have been answered but do Jewish people have non Jewish friends in general, not work colleagues, but close friends? And if so how does that work with socialising like going out for meals or to each other’s houses? Or is it easier to socialise within your own community?

Even though I’ve RTFT there so much information that I forgotten if it’s been answered.🤭

Again, it is important to understand that there is a spectrum. A yiddish speaking Chassidic woman is unlikely to have any close non-Jewish friends. As you move along the spectrum from more insular to less insular, it is more likely to happen. But, that said, Shabbat is our big day for socialising - and because of the no driving room, you have to live within walking distance of a synagogue, and hence one another. It is so much easier to keep up contact and keep close to other Jews who are also looking to socialise on Shabbat and can walk to you and you can walk to them (there are people who are both Jewish and religious but because they live in, say, Edgeware, I just don't see that much of them and have fallen out of touch). And of course, like a lot of people, a lot of my friends these days are other mums whom I met at the school gates, and if your kids go to Jewish Orthodox schools, those are often the people you end up being friendly with.
In terms of non-Jews, mostly these days I meet them at work, so are work colleagues (and sometimes one hits it off, and becomes friends even once one is no longer a work colleague). I also had friends from university and younger, and some of them I am still in touch with - but mostly we live on different continents these days, so tricky. I don't know about you, but between work and looking after my DC and the additional burden of carving out time for Shabbat, there isn't a lot of social time left.
As mentioned, my DS is now at university, and making a lot of non-Jewish friends (and some non religious Jewish friends) - he is highly sociable, and given that there are very, very few Orthodox Jewish students on his campus, he would be lost without making both non religious Jewish and non-Jewish friends. A lot of people though would be very worried about this (I am rather worried about this myself, but you have to let them do what they want to do) because the risks are rather great that they they will be want to be like everybody else and move away from the religion.
As somebody asked on the previous thread - what can an Orthodox Jew become a doctor - the answer is yes, and that is what he is studying and why he is where he is, that is his dream - but note that we are from the modern Orthodox part of the spectrum, the more charedi you are, the less likely it is that you would want to go to university, and after many years of yeshiva, a long course like medicine is increasingly unlikely (even if you could get in, which is not trivial).

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 19:30

@jewishorthomum and ha no. Not in the slightest bit careful around anything! The naughtiest person I've ever met probably.. I met him for a weekend in Tel Aviv once. He would get round the not being able to turn lights on thing by just asking me to do it or me to open the mini fridge in the hotel!

RosaBonheur · 27/04/2023 19:30

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 17:35

shul = synagogue
kiddush = the get-together after a synagogue service where everyone drinks little cups of kosher wine/ cups of tea and eats biscuits and gossips

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That sounds identical to what used to happen after church when I was a kid.

I like this.

MissDemelzaCarne · 27/04/2023 19:31

Thanks for coming back @jewishorthomum you have an excellent way of explaining things.

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:32

UpperLowerMiddleClass · 27/04/2023 19:17

Thank you @jewishorthomum for your previous thread OP, and for your thoughtful and interesting responses.

My question was at the tail end of the old thread and so got missed I think. It is what is your honest opinion of Jews who marry out and don’t bring their families up in the Jewish religion?

And yes I do have skin in the game! I was brought up Jewish, though not especially religious, I attended synagogue a few times a year, also cheder, plus Passover at grandparents house etc. I’m now married to a non Jew and we’d both describe ourselves as atheists, and aren’t raising our children in any religion. Though I do plan to teach them about Judaism in a family/cultural sense - the fact my grandparents are originally from Poland, etc.

Am I “doing Hitler’s work for him” as my (very blunt and not particularly nice) grandmother once put it?

Hi, As an orthodox Jew I'm hesitant to answer how I view those who leave the faith because you probably won't like the answer.
We view it as a tragedy. We believe Judaism and abiding by the Torah on whichever level is a Jews duty. As you said correctly our grandparents died for this in the war. and honestly I'd hope and pray that your kids reconnect with their roots and see the beauty in Judaism, at a later point, as they are and will always be Jewish.

RosaBonheur · 27/04/2023 19:34

amcha · 27/04/2023 17:53

@8state
Oh I didn't answer about music. While I am, as I said, pretty omnivorous with books and mostly did not restrict my kids, mostly assuming they were sensible enough to avoid or put down books that bothered them - I am probably less comfortable around some of the overtly sexual music videos out there, and some of the lyrics, and probably not something i am keen on exposing my DC to. Some in the more charedi communities (and it was really pushed by my DC's primary school) to listen to Jewish music only - and again there is a whole genre out there of music with uses modern techniques and sound with Jewish/Hebrew lyrics - I rather like some of the more soppy stuff - like D'vekus - some of it is more rock - the key is usually using Hebrew lyrics - often based on texts from the Bible or other Jewish literature. In Israel now there is a relatively new genre that fuses that and more modern lyrics that I personally find very creative and love - but some of these are too "modern" for the charedi taste.

Is any of this stuff on Spotify or YouTube? I'd love to have a listen.

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 19:34

@8state I love to read, particularly fantasy (Sarah J Maas for example, grew up reading a lot of David Eddings, Anne McCaffrey, Orson Scott Card, @kvothethebloodless username made me smile ... :) and classics, plus a lot of rubbish teen books) I also like to read a weekly Jewish magazine on Shabbos (Mishpacha). There are various degrees of what people will read - Some of my frummer (chareidi) relatives will only read Jewish novels, lots will read anything.

I listen to a wide range of music, including a lot of Jewish music, I love Simon and Garfunkel and older classics. I only play Jewish music and disney really in front of the kids. When we sing on Friday nights, it is only Jewish music, we love a lot of slow, soul music when we sing

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:36

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 19:30

@jewishorthomum and ha no. Not in the slightest bit careful around anything! The naughtiest person I've ever met probably.. I met him for a weekend in Tel Aviv once. He would get round the not being able to turn lights on thing by just asking me to do it or me to open the mini fridge in the hotel!

Well that explains how the affair happened. Regardless of his dress code, I wouldn't call him a Chassid (Righteous ultra orthodox Jew).

annielou55 · 27/04/2023 19:38

Bringonthesunshineporfavor · 27/04/2023 19:18

This thread has been so interesting…have literally done absolutely nothing all afternoon apart from reading this …thank you @jewishorthomum for starting this AMA

Me too! Good job it was quiet in the office!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 19:39

@jewishorthomum he definitely had internal wranglings about how he had to live - clearly there is no other option,'if we are being realistic

He was also a recovering alcoholic and he did tell me that he had many friends who had a variety of addictions - all Hasidic.

So it seemed clear that some ultra Orthodox Jews struggle with their religion

annielou55 · 27/04/2023 19:41

@amcha thanks for answering.

UpperLowerMiddleClass · 27/04/2023 19:42

@jewishorthomum Thank you for your honesty on the marrying out issue. Your answer is along the lines I suspected it would be, but which a lot of people would be too polite to say in real life. There are definitely benefits to an anonymous to an anonymous online forum.

Fink · 27/04/2023 19:44

I had questions on conversion and racism carried over from the previous thread, so I hope the OP will answer them later, when time allows. In the meantime, I have a question about life after death: Rabbi Jonathan Romain (I think he is a Reform rabbi) was on the radio recently talking about the death of his son, and he surprised me by saying 'I don't believe that he's gone to what some people call "a better place". Judaism's a bit iffy about the afterlife, it's officially on the books we're not really sure what happens, and the rabbis have always said "look, this is the main world, concentrate on the here and now, we'll find out in the after one day", and to be very blunt, no one's ever sent a postcard back. So I, to be honest, do not expect to see Benedict again.' He went on to say that he didn't think there was a divine plan and that he didn't blame God for his son's death because he thought it was a random thing not part of God's will.

The presenter of the show then did a voiceover bit saying that Rabbi Romain recognised that Judaism had a broad spectrum of beliefs and that other [Jewish] people would draw comfort from the idea of an afterlife and divine providence.

So my question is how mainstream/widespread the views that Rabbi Romain has on life after death and divine providence are? Would that be a majority viewpoint or not? Do views differ significantly amongst practising people of the different branches of Judaism?

TIA!

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 19:48

Shhhhhhhhhhhhnow · 27/04/2023 19:39

@jewishorthomum he definitely had internal wranglings about how he had to live - clearly there is no other option,'if we are being realistic

He was also a recovering alcoholic and he did tell me that he had many friends who had a variety of addictions - all Hasidic.

So it seemed clear that some ultra Orthodox Jews struggle with their religion

Right, there are fringe groups in every society. And he definitely sounds like part of one.

RosaBonheur · 27/04/2023 19:50

Really interesting thread.

I have two questions.

Does observing the sabbath mean you can't ever go away for the weekend? What about to the wedding of a non Jewish friend?

More of an observation really. Isn't there an unfortunate conflict between the rule about Judaism being passed down the female line and the desire to keep the Jewish population as high as possible? What if, for example, a Jewish man fell in love with a non Jewish woman who was happy for her children to be raised in the Jewish faith? Could the children definitely not be Jewish?

I recently discovered that my great great grandfather was Jewish, which I had no idea about. When doing my family tree I discovered that he was one of 14 children and that his father cut him out of his will. (He married a non Jewish woman. He is buried in the Jewish section and his wife and son are buried in the C of E section of one of the big cemeteries in Melbourne.) The will excluded him and several other siblings, and made it clear that other children and grandchildren would lose their entitlement if they married outside the Jewish faith. His mother had emigrated to Australia with five of her brothers and they all married non Jewish women, so she was already the last of her generation to be bringing up Jewish children. It seems like this rule makes it very difficult to avoid entire branches of families losing their Jewish Jewishness.