Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

This thread and its predecessor are two of the most fascinating I’ve read on here and I’ve learnt so much. I’m Muslim, from a minority sect that tends to keep to our own due to our own persecution, and have unfortunately never had the opportunity to meet any Jewish people personally or professionally, so it’s been such an lovely insight into your lives. So many parallels! I was unaware that ritual bathing was also a big part of Judaism. Thank you and blessings to all.

My question - there’s been much debate in the wider Muslim community recently after a gov report urged the British Army to recruit more Muslims. If conscription were introduced in the future, how would the men in your community feel about having to fight for this country?

I'm feeling the same, to be honest.
Christianity is not synonymous with idolatry and it is unquestionably monotheistic.
Maybe some of the Jewish women on here can say which other gods they think are worshipped by Christians?

As a Christian (which I also am), I'm sure you're aware that most mainstream Muslims and Jews consider us to be not properly monotheistic. It might be frustrating to know that's how we perceived, but it's not really news. It probably doesn't help that the mystery of the Trinity is not well understood by average Christians, and even less so by average members of other religions. Fundamentally, if a Jewish or Muslim person believed everything in Christianity to be compatible with their own comprehension of the truth, then they would just convert (and vice versa for a Christian who believed everythin in Judaism or Islam). The fact that all three religions remain vibrant and disctinct (as well as many more, of course) indicates that there are some things we (respectfully) disagree on, and the Trinity has always been at the heart of those.

Slightly hard to say, since I am not a man (and my DH is too old). Think my DS would be keen if he felt it was necessary to defend Britain against say, Putin (although given that he is training to be a doctor, he would probably want to work in the medical corp). Historically I believe Jews have if anything been over represented in fighting for Britain (and the US, and Australia, and, in WW1, Germany) compared with their population numbers.

Or you could do a Catholic AMA as these ladies have done a Jewish one!

As a fellow Catholic, please don’t be offended by people not knowing our religion and/or not sharing our beliefs. Accusations have been made against Jews and Muslims in this thread that they no doubt see as inaccurate and offensive too.

I see far more similarities between our religions than differences and it has been fascinating to me to learn more about not just about Judaism as other posters draw on their own religion and experiences.

Traditionally Christianity/Judaism/Islam have always been at odds. We will always be separate religions with differing beliefs, opinions and faiths.

The challenge is for us to live and let live, respecting the life of others.
I really think this thread does that.

If I have hurt you in any way please do let me know.

A lurker here - thank you, all you wonderful Ultra Orthodox women who have explianed Yiddishkeit in such a beautiful way. As a member of a traditional Orthodox synagogue (but not Ultra), I so respect what you do. I often wish that I had the strength of will to become shomrei shabbat - maybe one day.

A question was asked a bit ago about security around schools. I live in a town in the north of the UK (not Manchester) and when my children were small, they went to the local Jewish Primary school (in the 00's). The school was state-funded but we, the parents had a voluntary payment for Jewish Studies and we also had to pay for Security. Back then, before the state-funding for security, we started off by having parents run security and then the school had a security firm provide guards at the gates. I used to joke with my non-Jewish friends that it wasn't to make sure that our children didn't escape but to make sure that their children didn't try to get some Jewish Studies without paying the Voluntary Fee!!

I’m a lapsed Catholic and don’t find it offensive at all, even though it’s obviously inaccurate. I don’t know why, but I just never have cared much what anyone else thought of my faith or beliefs. Mostly I won’t discuss my own beliefs, and wouldn’t try to discuss Catholicism because I’d get it wrong. Despite that, I do love learning about others and always feel deeply respectful. (And that’s something I learned through Catholicism.)

In simple terms though saying Catholics are idol worshipers is just a lazy, somewhat offensive trope. If it’s quite rightly offensive to use similar tropes against other religions then surely the same courtesy should be afforded to Catholics?

@jewishorthomum i genuinely don’t see why religions have to be at odds with each other. I have taught my children that non Christian religions also believe in their true god. Assuming there is one true god then in my mind we share a god and just have different ways of showing it. No one is more right then the other.

anyway it’s late and I’m tired.

My grandfather fought overseas in ww2 as a British Jewish soldier and was a proud member of AJEX (association of Jewish ex servicemen).

My other grandfather was in civil defence in London.

My great grandfather arrived in the UK around 1914 and immediately signed up to be in the British army in ww1.

Freud's sons fought for Germany in ww1.

In general, jews are fine with fighting for their country. We pray for the monarch and the country during synagogue services.

I'm really glad you have enjoyed reading this thread and learning about all the commonalities that we share. 😊

I'm sorry to have to say it but given the majority of posters have engaged respectfully, I feel the thread has taken an offensive turn.

Some of the answers from our Jewish posters regarding other faiths have been less than respectful.

I'm not Catholic, but those who are are telling you that they find your comments and views on idolatry etc offensive and instead of apologising and recognising you are causing offence by your comments, you are doubling down on your opinion, continuing to show disrespect.

I'm out.

I think it's kind of taken for granted that each religion thinks they have got it 'right' and the others have got it wrong.

Christians have long hated the Jews for not agreeing that Jesus was really the messiah.

If you push religious Jewish people to state what they find wrong or uncomfortable in Christianity, it's going to conflict with your Christian beliefs

I haven't seen anything offensive since the awful man who was banned and the antisemites on the first thread, but I'm sorry you feel that way.

This is very well said. Jews who believe in the Trinity and in the divinity of Jesus would be Christians!

Christians have long hated the Jews for not agreeing that Jesus was really the messiah

I don’t hate Jews and don’t know any Christian’s who do - and certainly have never heard such views expressed.

If you push religious Jewish people to state what they find wrong or uncomfortable in Christianity, it's going to conflict with your Christian beliefs

Im not pushing anyone to say anything- all I have said is that one thing mentioned my several people is not true.

These threads always go fine and "respectful" until the answers aren't what the questioners want to hear. If anyone is offended by the belief system of someone else, simply back out of the thread. The Jewish posters are answering questions honestly according to their beliefs. They aren't calling anyone names, mocking other religions, or insulting anyone.

As a Christian I do see anything offensive in what was said about Jewish views of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. As I understand the Jewish women are saying that it is permissible for Christians as non-Jews to believe and worship that way but it is not permissible for Jews.
That seems a reasonable point of view presented firmly but respectfully.

I have to add that a lot of Christians find the doctrine of the Trinity difficult. When I was attending Anglican churches every preacher on Trinity Sunday would start his sermon by complaining that he had got the short straw for having to preach on the subject. And as far as statues etc go there a lot of Christian traditions which don't use them and feel that they are wrong.

I think Christians are so used to hearing Trinitarian and Jesus wording in our worship that we don't realise how jarring it could be to others whose faith is different.

I feel that there's a lot of hostility in some of these posts. But to take it at face value, and I'm not speaking for anyone else here... and speaking as a Jew who loves visiting churches, especially in Roman Catholic countries...

The worship of the Virgin Mary has always felt to me to have a lot in common with goddess worship. I find it quite fascinating and beautiful for this reason - churches in the South of Spain etc really seem to centre statues and paintings of Mary. If you didn't know any better you'd assume she was the focus of the church.

Similarly, the chapels dedicated to various saints, and people praying to specific saints for specific reasons, has a polytheistic feel when you're coming from a Jewish perspective.

Finally, I've been to processions in Spain where statues are carried through the streets all night. From the perspective of a religion where there are no depictions of human beings, this feels like a form of idol worship.

I understand that from a Christian point of view, this is all part of monotheism. But I'm trying to explain how it feels from a Jewish perspective.

Our central prayer is shema yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echod. Which translates to hear oh Israel, the Lord is our g-d, the Lord is one. That 'one-ness' is at the heart of the whole religion.

I respect the beliefs of everyone posting here and hope this thread will not descend into conflict.

It is an insult to say that Christianity is idolatrous.

I was raised Christian Orthodox, if you really want to talk about idolatry.

Ironically, the head of the church in my home country actually declared it's a sin to attend a Catholic mass. Don't really remember why , or particularly care to be honest but I'm sure the devout followers would've paid attention and avoid it. It is what it is.

It's no more an insult than it is for Christians to say that Jews are heathens or blasphemers or whatever for not believing that Jesus is the son of G--d. It's not an insult. It's a theological difference of opinion.

I have to say Ortiguilla that as a Presbyterian Christian I feel pretty much the same as you about those types of mainly Catholic devotion.

I have enjoyed these threads and not felt the need to post previously but just wanted to add another voice to those Christians who do not feel insulted by the explanations of some of our religious differences.

It is an insult to say that Christianity is idolatrous.

But from a Jewish perspective it technically is, what with all the saints, statues, icons, remains etc. praying to, kissing, kneeling in front of and so on.

I would think it insulting for me to say to Jewish people that they are heathens or blasphemers. The women on this thread are deeply religious and I would never dream of making those accusations of them - that would be awful and massively disrespectful of their beliefs.

Well I guess we have found a crunch point between the two religions! Very interesting, but also unresolvable so probably not much point thrashing it out on here.

I have a couple of question. What are the big furry hats the men sometimes wear?