Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Thanks jewishorthomum, I guess this is a part of Judaism I'm struggling with, as a Christian, in my church we're thought to love and pray for every human being, regardless of what their ethnicity is or indeed they believe in. In my church when attacks against Christians were made, one prayed for sufferers but also attackers, contrary to ones instincts...it just feels a very different worldview, so when love others as you love yourself was first mentioned, I thought it meant humanity as a whole...

According to Jewish law, although a mode of worship may be permitted for a non-Jew, a Jew may not worship G-d through any religion other than Judaism.
A church is not "just a building," the potent atmosphere of a house of worship has an effect, however subliminal on those who enter. Thus for a Jew, entering would be, albeit perhaps in a very subliminal way, tantamount to worshiping G-d in a way that is forbidden for a Jew.
Ultimately, it is a commandment that we are obliged to adhere to.
Turning down the sound of prayer is probably a sensitivity that aligns with this commandment.

Thank you @jewishorthomum - I’m am interested in your views on my comments re Catholics / idolatry too.

Sorry just wanted to add one additional point - directly to the question - Aren't prayers universal? Some of them are, but some of them aren't. We watched most of the late Queen's funeral - and there was a lot of - Oh that is one of ours (eg The Lord is my Shepherd - I confess I love the English tune, very different to the tune to the Hebrew words that we sing on a Shabbat afternoon - I always think that the English tune is the young David, out in the fields, and the Hebrew tune is the more elderly, life experienced, David) - but there was also a lot of "In the name of ....., Amen" - and that last one is really not universal. Totally understand why Christians use it to finish everything, but it is exactly the bit that makes Jews feel very uncomfortable. My DC are now older, but really not sure I would have wanted to try and explain that to an inquisitive five year old, especially with a version of our word "Amen" tacked on the end of it.

Yes

Christians are asked to pray for everyone, including people who commit the worst
transgressions.

Are Jews asked to pray for their enemies?

No, this is often seen as something of a theological divide. By and large we pray for justice, not specifically for our enemies. The closest is the idea that you pray for the removal of the sin, not the sinner, but it is not quite the same.
Can I suggest you read The Sunflower, by Simon Wiestenthal - see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sunflower-Possibilities-Forgiveness-Simon-Wiesenthal/dp/0805210601
The blurb as per Amazon is as follows:
"A Holocaust survivor's surprising and thought-provoking study of forgiveness, justice, compassion, and human responsibility, featuring contributions from the Dalai Lama, Harry Wu, Cynthia Ozick, Primo Levi, and more.You are a prisoner in a concentration camp. A dying Nazi soldier asks for your forgiveness. What would you do?
While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, Simon Wiesenthal was taken one day from his work detail to the bedside of a dying member of the SS. Haunted by the crimes in which he had participated, the soldier wanted to confess toand obtain absolution froma Jew. Faced with the choice between compassion and justice, silence and truth, Wiesenthal said nothing. But even years after the way had ended, he wondered: Had he done the right thing? What would you have done in his place?
In this important book, fifty-three distinguished men and women respond to Wiesenthal's questions. They are theologians, political leaders, writers, jurists, psychiatrists, human rights activists, Holocaust survivors, and victims of attempted genocides in Bosnia, Cambodia, China and Tibet. Their responses, as varied as their experiences of the world, remind us that Wiesenthal's questions are not limited to events of the past."

While as you can see, there were a wide range of theologians who were asked to comment - the reality is that most of them were either Christians or Jews - and I as I recall, reading it, you can see a reasonably clear divide between theological approaches. This is true, by the way, even though I don't believe that many of the Jewish theologians were Orthodox.

Its a beautiful thought to love and pray for every human, and in Judaism we also have this concept - "When our attackers suffer we must not rejoice."
I actually don't think our worldviews on this are that different. We both believe in appreciating humanity as a whole and the value of each person.

Judaism does have an element of exclusivity by it being both a race and a religion. It is passed down by birthright and we don't offer just anyone to try it out. In order to preserve and hopefully not dilute Jewish heritage, we have to have boundaries in place. I do understand how that comes across as exclusive.

But I reiterate the requirement of being kind and respectful to ALL people is a must. Its a Jewish concept called "Derech Eretz".

A couple of people have mentioned this program:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0dj0z26/stacey-dooley-sleeps-over-series-2-5-strictly-orthodox-jews

Did any of the Jewish contributors here watch it, and what did you think? Is it a fair portrayal of Orthodox life?

I don't know the answer from a Jewish POV, and you have already had a couple above, but from a Christian POV the commandment to pray for our enemies comes in the context of a series of teachings Jesus gives during the Sermon on the Mount where each one starts 'You have heard it said ... but I say to you ...' where the 'you have heard it said' refers to a commandment of the Jewish Law and the 'but I say to you' extends and broadens it. So it is very specifically set up as a difference between the two.

Although it is more of an academic read, if you are that way inclined there is an article I really liked called ‘Righteousness and Divine Love: Maimonides and Thomas on Charity’ by Jeffrey A. Bernstein. He discusses the distinction (as well as similarities) between tzedakah and caritas and how they reveal the fundamental difference (and similarity) in world views

Don't forget that the Queen was a member of the Church of England, and that very many other denominations exist within Christianity.

Most of them don't have set prayers at all.

Oh totally agree - but the question was specifically about turning down the sound to the funeral of the Queen of England. Perhaps I should have said instead of "Totally understand why Christians use it to finish everything" - "Totally understand why CofE Christians " or "certain Christians" - or something like that. The point being, that some formulations are not universal, and we don't always know what is coming, and what we might then have to explain to our DC.

Sorry, never seen it. Don't know if others have.

To be fair, the ones that don't have set prayers are more often the ones that say (or shout) 'in the name of Jesus, amen!' at the end of every second sentence. 😂So the fact that they're extempore prayers rather than following a traditional formula probably isn't of much comfort to a Jewish listener.

The short answer is yes, the Torah views Christianity as a form of idolatry. The Jewish understanding of idolatry includes the worship of a man-god and the belief that God is intrinsically more than one but extrinsically one.
I am not an expert on Christianity, by far. But what I understand is that Chrisitanity is a non-monotheistic religion which the Torah states is forbidden for Jews.

I don't think most observant Jews think very much about it though. We're focused more on our own journey and not on the journey of others.

I drafted a very long post about halacha on going into churches etc. but @amcha got there first.

As respectfully as I can put this...icons in a Catholic church are a problem for us because we are not allowed to make graven images or worship them. This is a no no for us regardless of the Catholic view. More generally, as @amcha explained there is a real debate over how to classify Christianity because of the Trinity - the more lenient view is that it is just about acceptable for Christians as you do still believe in G-d, but it is absolutely not OK for Jews. That has an impact on how much we can be involved in entering church sanctuaries or attending Christian acts of worship.

You probably missed the flag that I'm a convert. I grew up in a Christian setting, have Christian family, and went to Christian services as a kid (not by choice). I am not at all ignorant about Christianity. I want to minimise taking part in a Christian service (even by listening) as I deliberately left that world behind for Orthodox Judaism. I'm only raising this so you understand my personal reaction.

My last time in a church sanctuary was for my grandmother's funeral. I asked for advice, and was allowed to go as long as I didn't take part in the service i.e. sing hymns or pray. That was a ruling which went to a Dayan (Rabbinical court judge), which shows how seriously it was taken. The reason in that case was to avoid upsetting my non-Jewish family as I was the only grandchild.

More generally, there is a strong Jewish sensitivity around being seen to be doing something that is not appropriate for us even if we aren't actually doing anything wrong. This has a big impact on how we deal with interfaith encounters, especially Christianity (given Jewish-Christian history).

My eldest is 5. He will obviously have to learn more about Christianity at some point but it is our choice as to when is appropriate to introduce different ideas and now is not the time. Right now he knows Christmas and churches exist and that is enough. There is no need for him to sit and listen to a Christian prayer service in the interests of interfaith.

I have a different question: I asked on the last thread (in the context of why some people write G-d) whether the word 'God' in English is considered to be holy in itself, or is considered to be a name rather than just a decription/title. I can't remember that it was answered, but it doesn't really matter.

But I did want to ask: I was brought up to use the word Adonai as a replacement for the holy name when coming across it in Scripture (both Adonai and The LORD were considered the appropriate forms). Would Jewish people think of this as inappropriate, or cultural appropriation, or would it be ok?

Christianity is monotheistic.
Just one God.

From a Christian perspective.

From a Jewish perspective, the Trinity means it is not strictly monotheistic. The more lenient view is that it is a form of monotheism with 'associations' (shituf) which is acceptable for non-Jews but not for us.

This really is the crux of the issue.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Christianity to debate.

It doesn't feel appropriate, sorry. We only use 'Adonai' in prayer, otherwise we say Hashem. It would be better to use The Lord or Hashem please, especially if you are around Jews.

Ok, thanks. It's very unlikely to be around Jews, but it's good to know anyway. I'll stick to The Lord. 🙏

Just to add - turning the sound down isn't unique to me, my (born Orthodox Jewish) Rabbi did the same for the Queen's funeral.

We tend to use HaShem (literally - the Name) in that context ie replacement of the holy name - but would also use G-d in English. It probably is not a problem writing it out in English, but somehow I feel more comfortable abreviating.

Catholicism does not worship graven images - it permits them as they remind us of unseen things but condemns the idolatry of statue worship. So in this sense the Jewish teachings are inaccurate.

im finding some of these accusations against catholics both inaccurate and offensive - as I said earlier there has been a massive amount of respect and understanding shown towards the Jewish women posting on this thread and feel saddened by this. Maybe it’s time to step away.

I watched most of this programme, a while back. Its a Chabad family, so its a fair portrayel of a Chabad family. There will obviously be differences between them and a satmar family from Stamford Hill or a modern Orthodox family from Hendon.

They are lovely people, I know them IRL.