Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

It is implicit.

And has been made explicit many times to all Jews living in a predominantly Christian culture.

It's a mistake to try to push religious people into stating what they think of another religion. Obviously they don't believe in it, or they'd follow that religion instead.

It should be taken as read that people who follow different religions have different belief systems. There is nothing constructive to be said by going down that route.

Streimels, or sometimes spodiks. Pretty much only Chassidim (and not Lubavitch Chassidim). Anybody on here whose DH wears one? Not worn by Modern Orthodox or Yeshivishe (Yeshivishe, and Lubavitch, tend to wear black hats). Modern Orthodox wear knitted kippot - modern orthodox on the border of yeshivishe wear black knitted kippot, more to the left, they tend to me more colourful (or white).

If you know these things, you can tell which branch of Chassidim a man belongs to by the shape of his streimel/spodik. Note they are generally only worn on shabbat, festivals or special occasions (such as when getting married and the week after marriage).

Hoop Lane is in Golders Green

That’s interesting. I wonder what the history is behind those hats!

I forgot to add my other question. Why is the kitchen covered during Passover? (I think that’s right?)

This thread has been a very interesting read and I respect how the Jewish ladies have kept firm on their stance and not tried to sugar coat certain aspects to keep everyone happy. It would be impossible for us all to agree on every single thing. For what it's worth as a Muslim we also don't view Christianity to be totally monotheistic due to the trinity and other reasons mentioned above

I really hope this isn't offensive. Is the (Hebrew) word Timshel - from East of Eden a real word? If not, is the translation and meaning accurate? I remember reading that book as a young teen and I found that (very possibly made up) part really powerful and at silly as it sounds kind of shaped my own idea of G-d and free will.

Although if any of the more knowledgeable Christians here were to start another thread to explain how the trinity is monotheistic I would love to read and learn more about it
As they say education is key

parking I am not sure that anyone (even eminent theologians) is able to explain the Trinity very clearly.

I have thought about starting a AMA about Christianity (or my branch of it) though if anyone is interested.

@NoHaudinMaWheest yes please do! I would love to read it and also ask a few questions

Ok not until tomorrow though.
Goodnight everyone.

You really need someone from one of the chassidic groups to talk about the hats. Covering the kitchen during Passover is pretty much across the board though (there are a few people who kasher their kitchen surfaces rather than covering, and some do both, but a) you need to have a kitchen surface that can take having boiling water poured all over it; and b) it needs to be a type of material that can be kashered - not all can).
During Passover we do not eat any form of leavened bread - and that means the absolutely tiniest amount, including a tiny, tiny crumb. That is why all the food we eat on Pesach needs to be supervised to ensure it is kosher for Passover, and all our regular surfaces or dishes and everything either need to be kashered (depending on what it is, it depends on how to make it kosher for passover, but that assumes a material that can be made kosher for Passover - eg can take being dunked into a boiling vat of water or one of the other means of kashering), or - and these days most of us find it easier, is to have special plates and cutlery and pots and pans and the works for Pesach that have never had any regular bread or similar on it. And the same is with our kitchen surfaces, which during the year often have bread crumbs and similar on them. Even though we clean them, to be absolutely sure no minute fragment is not still lurking in the surface and might come out onto our Pesach food, we cover them.

Well it is not something that we as Jews pretty much ever talk about in the way Steinbeck does.
Best I could find is this:
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/arts-culture/2022/10/john-steinbecks-confused-hebrew/
https://forward.com/culture/370787/how-did-john-steinbeck-and-an-obama-staffer-get-the-bible-so-wrong/

Free will is fundamental to Jewish belief, it underpins a great deal, but the discussions are not centred on this word at all.

I don’t want to cause thread drift and if @NoHaudinMaWheest is willing to do an AMA, she is probably better able to explain but…

In Catholicism, there is only one (monotheistic) God who revealed himself to the world in three different ways - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is the Trinity.

As an analogy, what is H20? Water, right? You are probably thinking of it in its liquid form. In a glass, or as rain, or an ocean. But H20 is also a gas - water vapour. Mist. Steam from a kettle. Clouds. It is also a solid - ice. Whether it is ice in a drink or the polar icecaps or snow, it is water.

Catholic God is water. Don’t get me started on turning it into wine! (Hope that isn’t too flippant for anyone).

Back to Judaism -

Am I right in thinking that the congregation (is that the right word?) can choose their own Rabbi rather than being assigned a Rabbi by a higher body?

Lots of people have talked about Shabbas food but that seems to be focussed on Friday night. Is Saturday leftovers day? What sort of things can you cook/not cook/eat/have that fit in with the no work/no turning on the oven type of restrictions?

thank you

@amcha and @wonderkid, I grew up chassidish so my father wears a shtreimel but a shtreimel is only for Shabbos and festivals, the rest of the week he wears a black hat, my husband wears a black hat all week since he isn't chassidish.
The origin for hats in general is because it is considered a formal way of dress all people dressed like that until around the mid 20th century. Most ultra orthodox men will wear a hat to shul for prayers some wear it whenever they leave the house.
The shtreimel is traditional headwear from central and eastern Europe where fur hat was a very nice thing to wear, and so it is used as a way to honour the festivities.
Chassidish in prewar Europe didn't really wear shtreimels only the big Rabbis and wealthy people could afford them they only became ubiquitous with all chassidim in the last few decades.
Gur chassidim wear spodik on shabbos which is like a shtreimel but a slightly different shape and made of a cheaper type of fur.
There are various types of black hats each with slight differences which are worn by different chassidish groups and the yeshivish hat is a bit different too.

@amcha thank you for that. I always wondered.To be honest I don't think many people (of any religion) think much about it in that context.

So if I'm getting it right, wrong word , but fairly accurate translation.

@LetsBeSensible

Thank you for that explanation. It is helpful.

I wasn't aware of the specific history around criticising statue worship in the UK. My comments are based on my own experiences of processions during Semana Santa and other festivals in Spain.

Fwiw, i think the churches, statues and processions of Andalucia are probably the most beautiful, powerful and emotional religious imagery I've ever seen.

It doesn't speak to me spiritually, as a Jew, but as depictions of human experience, emotions, pain, love, anguish, I find it incredibly powerful. I can totally understand how people connected with it.

To Jews, and probably Muslims too though i can't speak for them, any physical representation of g-d is very alien.

Obviously Hindus go way the other way and have amazing visual representations of all their deities.

I have some sephardic background way back (one great-grandmother) which also showed up in my dna tests, and I'm convinced that I should be living in the south of Spain 😊

I recently visited Córdoba which was the heart of medieval Jewish Spain (before the expulsion and the inquisition) and had a very strange, profound feeling of connection in the Jewish streets there.

@Ortiguilla It’s not just Spain or UK. It’s US massively also. That’s a different AMA. I personally don’t get offended at people not understanding and believing whatever they’ve been told about Catholicism. But that’s because it’s never really impacted me. We were always insulated from it and growing up I went mostly to Catholic schools and mostly knew other Catholics.

It may be wise to put the RC issues to one side, perhaps someone wise about the practices could start an AMA?

This.

If one of our Catholic or Presbyterian PPs wants to start their own AMA, that's fine. This is an AMA about Orthodox Jewish women. We were asked to explain, from our POV, why we do not enter churches or participate in Christian prayers. We answered, from our perspective as Orthodox Jews.

I understand Catholic sensitivities around icons, but the Jewish position on Christianity predates the Reformation and Henry VIII. Jews were objecting to the Trinity from the dawn of Christianity. The Jewish objection to any intermediary even resembling an idol is rooted in the Torah. This is a fundamental clash of our faiths, and is not going to be resolved by a few women on Mumsnet.

I should add that a lot of Jewish blood has been spilled at Christian hands (including Catholic) because of the Church's refusal to accept that we Jews have our own belief system about this. That is a lot of historical baggage. It is also a reason why the Chief Rabbi going to the coronation next Shabbat is so significant.

I don't think there is anything more productive to be said on this particular topic, so please can we draw a line under it.

I'm very much looking forward to the multi faith aspect of the Coronation. Will the Chief Rabbi wear special robes? Will he offer a prayer?.

I'm so enjoying this thread and its predecessor) - thank you, ladies, so much for doing it.

Can I ask a bit about managing your meat and milk kitchens? Does it go down to crockery - do you have meat plates and milk plates? If something's used for the wrong purpose, does it contaminate just the item, or does it do the whole kitchen? How do you 'fix' it - I'm guessing it's not just about a quick scrub with some Fairy!

And again, thank you all for this. I did enjoy the diversion into Jewish vs. Christian beliefs, too (and had never realised that you don't view us as monotheistic - makes me feel quite exotic, actually ).

As a now atheist but brought up CofE and RC schooling, I agree.
There’s obviously many different opinions and perspectives on here; I completely respect those whose opinions are different to mine.