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Jewish Orthodox mum AMA

1000 replies

jewishorthomum · 26/04/2023 14:02

I'm a 29 yr old Jewish Orthodox religious mum of 2 little boys. Is there anything you'd like to ask about Orthodox Jewish life?
Kill my time whilst I'm waiting to be called in for an appointment.
(When I get called in for my app I'll have to run but will try respond later if there are questions.)

OP posts:
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13
socialmedia23 · 27/04/2023 14:40

Bigpinktrain · 27/04/2023 14:29

In regards to living life in such an insular way, in order to protect yourselves from hatred, could it be perhaps that it’s doing the opposite, and actually contributing to a rise in antisemitism?

The founders of reform Judaism also thought this way, they made a real effort to integrate Jews into 20th century German society and even the services of that time had choirs and organs just like Christian services. If you look at a lot of pictures of urban German Jews, they looked no different from their Christian neighbours. Then a guy called Hitler came along...

Bigpinktrain · 27/04/2023 14:43

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:38

Antisemitism has been a pretty constant feature of being Jewish in Europe for the past 2000 years.

The Jews of Germany were as assimilated as it was possible to be. Freud treated the best of Viennese society. His sons fought in WW1 for Germany. They saw themselves as German, more than Jewish. Didn't make a blind bit of difference when the Nazis chose to scapegoat them

The Jews of Cordoba were a large part of the city and held important positions as respected figures. Didn't help when the Spanish Inquisition tortured and murdered them in their hundreds of thousands.

My grandpa was overseas for years fighting in WW2 as a British soldier. Didn't stop my grandma, back home in London, getting antisemitic abuse on the bus because they blamed the Jews for the war.

Doesn't seem to matter if we assimilate, don't assimilate, try to conceal who we are, are proud of it, mix, don't mix, whatever. It is not our fault.

Absolutely not your fault, and it’s never the victims place to have to correct the abusers behaviour. I GET that. Racism is flat out wrong. But as I said in the other post, as a black lady in UK society, the racism I receive only lessens when my white peers use their voices, I need them onside to make the difference

Dodgeitornot · 27/04/2023 14:44

@Maireas Hm I'm not sure I would class that as victim blaming tbh. I'm only commenting on the Stamford Hill community but their conduct really doesn't help and actually I think puts Jews in a really bad light. They are often extremely rude, and also often treat their secular employees and neighbours really badly. As they are so incredibly insular and have absolutely nothing to do with their non hasidic neighbours, they are often looked at as one. So if someone has their first experience with a Jew with them, it's likely they'll look at that whole community negatively. It is a shame as I think opening up even a little, at least to their neighbours, would help massively in improving the understanding of cultures.

meshuggeneh · 27/04/2023 14:44

@Bigpinktrain
Sounds like you internalized the racism. You do not cause the racism however you may choose to act. If others judge you based on your race, they ARE the racists.
I remember one lovely person saying to me (and I've seen it in comments on scoial media with regards to Israel normally) "jews have been hated wherever they have lived, don't you think it's time for some introspection?"

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:44

Bigpinktrain · 27/04/2023 14:39

No, please understand me as a Black lady who feels that dread, that sickening fear that I will be judged to a very different standard to my white peers, knowing that when I have to collect my child from school because she has been spat at, I can’t possibly be upset because I will be called aggressive, I get it. But my life and the existence of racism wouldn’t change if I didn’t try and integrate with the very same people that pull me down. Sadly.

I'm very sorry this happened to your daughter. Something similar happened to my daughter at school this week (I posted about it a bit earlier on this same thread). It's the most awful feeling.

Unfortunately, whether Jews try to assimilate and integrate, or whether we cut ourselves off and live in isolation, there are always people that just despise and hate us for who we are.

Coffeecoffeeinmytummy · 27/04/2023 14:44

Thanks for an interesting thread. I have two questions that don't seem to have been asked/answered but I may have missed them so apologies if so:

  1. Does anyone ever question the interpretation of the scripture you cited as reason for kosher practice of not mixing meat and dairy? From a complete outsider's perspective, reading the quote you gave (about not mixing a goat with it's mother's milk) immediately made me think it was metaphorical rather than actually about goat meat and milk. Something along the lines of demonstrating loyalty to family etc? I often wonder this across several religions, where the scripture that is used to support specific practices could have been very open to interpretation, and how we would know that the specific interpretation chosen is actually what God intended?
  2. You said in another post that orthodox Jewish culture is very different from Islam. Again, from a very ignorant perspective, it seems the opposite, and that many conservative groups of monotheistic religions have several noticeable similarities. I lived abroad for a few years in a country where most people are conservative muslims and a lot of the practices you describe sounded similar (e.g. importance of modesty, women needing to dress a certain way, covering the hair, segregation of the sexes, encouragement to procreate, treating children differently before/after puberty, the concept of a special 'holy' day each week, men being required to pray X times per day but not women, men and women not shaking hands and only talking on a needs must basis at work, women being assumed to provide more childcare, dietary requirements halal/kosher, no pork)
Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:45

Bigpinktrain · 27/04/2023 14:43

Absolutely not your fault, and it’s never the victims place to have to correct the abusers behaviour. I GET that. Racism is flat out wrong. But as I said in the other post, as a black lady in UK society, the racism I receive only lessens when my white peers use their voices, I need them onside to make the difference

100% we should, as minority communities, all have each other's backs. We are stronger together.

But it's not true that we have it in our power to change the way that racists think and perceive us.

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:47

Dodgeitornot · 27/04/2023 14:44

@Maireas Hm I'm not sure I would class that as victim blaming tbh. I'm only commenting on the Stamford Hill community but their conduct really doesn't help and actually I think puts Jews in a really bad light. They are often extremely rude, and also often treat their secular employees and neighbours really badly. As they are so incredibly insular and have absolutely nothing to do with their non hasidic neighbours, they are often looked at as one. So if someone has their first experience with a Jew with them, it's likely they'll look at that whole community negatively. It is a shame as I think opening up even a little, at least to their neighbours, would help massively in improving the understanding of cultures.

I try not to judge millions of people by the behaviour of one particular small community. I don't think the Westboro Baptist Church represent all Christians, for example.

JeweyJew · 27/04/2023 14:48

Allow me to clarify some issues. Firstly apologies for coming across rude on the coloured issue. I am sometimes abrupt bordering on rude, and it's something I need to work on.

POC/coloured isn't the hill I'm prepared to die on, so I'm not going to spend any more time back and forth. I'll just state my position and leave it at that. Personally I don't use either term, opting instead for either the geographical area or skin colour.

I could be wrong, but it appeared to me that the poster who first brought up the offensiveness of 'coloured', was doing so on behalf of others. Taking offence on behalf of a group (white saviour) is something that raises my hackles, and that probably came through in the response. Again, apologies for that.

For the record, I don't think it's a case of 'asking people what they find offensive', as nobody had ever polled all the black people to know which term they prefer. It was more a case of activists self-declaring themselves to be spokespeople for all others.

As stated, I don't see the difference between POC and coloured people. It's literally the same thing only back to front. However, as it's deemed an offensive term, I don't use it. I wasn't the one who used it to begin with, and I merely commented, albeit somewhat rudely, on the so-called offensiveness of one term vs the other.

Anyway, I'm over and done with that.

As to the question of Jewish-ness or religiosity, I'd compare it to many MNs on the TW issue. While many activists might not like someone saying TW are men, sometimes (always?) truth is far more important than being palatable.

Orthodox Judaism, which from a historic pov is unquestionably the authentic version, believes the Torah is divine. Not 'divinely inspired' but word for word dictated by Hashem.

The five books of Moses (Torah) were dictated word for word by Hashem. All the rest, namely the Prophets and the Writings (Nevi'im & Kesuvim), in addition to the Oral Torah (Talmud), are also divine, but not word for word. However they are all the words of Hashem as related to Moses on Mt Sinai.

If you believe that, there is actually meaning to the term 'religious' Jew. You're following the religion. The Law as dictated by Hashem. However someone who doesn't accept the divinity of the Torah, even if they do say the Sabbath, is merely being a cultural Jew.

For some cultural Judaism is eating matzah balls and gefilte fish, while for others it's also doing a seder and bar mitzvah ceremony. But it's still only about culture and tradition, rather than religion, ie because Hashem commanded it.

Seeing as any other denomination of 'Judaism' except for Orthodox doesn't actually believe in the divinity of the Torah, or in the other 13 tenets of faith for that matter, it is factually correct to state that they're not religious.

For me, someone stating they've converted through reform or any other such denomination and therefore they're Jewish, is as offensive as a man putting on makeup and claiming to be a woman. Judaism is a religion with very specific criteria, and it's not just about how one feels.

Within Orthodox Judaism, there are indeed many streams, and they're all valid. There are many differences based on culture and custom, and even some disagreements on points of law. But they all agree on the basic understanding which I wrote above, that the Torah is divine and all 13 tenets of faith are true.

Hopefully that clears up some matters.

Bookist · 27/04/2023 14:48

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:03

It's definitely not seen as purely for procreation. It is a mitzvah (good deed) for a man to give his wife an orgasm Grin

Hah! Where do I sign up? 😉

Maireas · 27/04/2023 14:51

No. Don't accept that any minority community in some way asks for racism. Why should Jewish people be beyond reproach in order not to get abuse? Plenty of people are insular and exclusive. It does not justify racism.

Dodgeitornot · 27/04/2023 14:51

@Ortiguilla I'm on the fence with this. I think yes some people will but integration goes a long way. Exposure and understanding goes a long way to helping. I really disagree with how insulated some communities are and I suspect it's more to do with stopping people from straying than much to do with previous experience of persecution.

Conchersbonkers · 27/04/2023 14:52

@Ortiguilla I also feel the world is becoming more polarised with various labels and fear the future for my kids. I grew up in a mixed, and very secular community abroad, my best friend in school was Jewish (still best, we live in different continents now though unfortunately) though we had so much teenage drama going on around us that religion was probably the last thing on our minds. And a dear dear family friend was more like a relative I grew up with, whom I would see everyday, I never really consciously categorised them according to their religion, only now when I look back I realise they are from another religion. So at least for me, your grandparents were wrong to fear I wouldn't care about jews like any other jew would. These two people made a huge difference to my life, and I love them to bits. So when I look at ultra orthodox communities, I feel sad that they are missing out and so do we by not interacting...

OneHurtSpaggettio · 27/04/2023 14:52

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socialmedia23 · 27/04/2023 14:53

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 14:25

Yes, I would consider a husband unilaterally deciding as controlling and financially abusive, unless that is something the couple have decided for whatever reason it works for them. Financial decisions are theoretically joint in our house, although practically, I don't get involved in decisions like comparing house or car insurances or whatever, but that is because I passed that job on to my husband and trust his judgement, and quite honestly I am not interested.

I have my own independent account where my earnings go and we have a joint account. Big decisions are always discussed and both have to agree. We generally check in with each other with bigger purchases. We have been through some very tight times, and at those points there was a lot more discussion about what we spent money on, but that's because if one of us spent a tenner on something, that could leave the house short for basics like nappies so we both had to be very on it.

That's how it goes for us, but I would think that how money is managed is individual to the family, not the community. When I think of friends/family, they all have their own unique systems. The only couple I know where the husband made unilateral financial decisions divorced.

Do you ever find it difficult that as a religious Jew, you often live cheek by jowl with people who are far more wealthy. There is a lot of inequality in the UK but I have never seen such a stark contrast except with religious Jews. Like in the same synagogue/school, there is someone who spent £100k on their kid's bar mitzvah and also someone on unemployment benefits. Everyone in between as well..I feel non Jews don't experience this as much as poor people would tend to live in cheaper areas and therefore go to different schools, socialize in very different social circles. To a certain extent all areas in London are mixed but at the same time, it is not as stark due to the different schools in different catchment areas and also ongoing gentrification.
How do you explain this to your children..

Dodgeitornot · 27/04/2023 14:53

@JeweyJew Why on earth would you come back just to use that word again? What's wrong with you. Do you not realise people won't even bother reading the rest of your message if you're so ignorant you can't even stop using the word.

meshuggeneh · 27/04/2023 14:55

@JeweyJew

I think you're a bigot and your explanation has just reinforced that.

You don't get to decide what's authentic Judaism much as you want to think that's your role and you have the lofty position to decide on this. Just as you don't get to decide for others what terms they might find offensive or not even though it's not offensive to you.

To my mind, extreme charedi judaism - like neturei karta or satmar - has deviated far from authentic judaism but I wouldn't dream of deciding for them and telling them that it's not real judaism.

Ortiguilla · 27/04/2023 14:55

Dodgeitornot · 27/04/2023 14:51

@Ortiguilla I'm on the fence with this. I think yes some people will but integration goes a long way. Exposure and understanding goes a long way to helping. I really disagree with how insulated some communities are and I suspect it's more to do with stopping people from straying than much to do with previous experience of persecution.

With respect:

  1. Assimilation didn't help the Jews of Germany, or the Jews of Cordoba, or the Jews who were shot in their synagogue in the USA last year.

  2. I don't think you (or I) can speak for those people or why they choose to live like that. Many, many ethnic and/or religious groups live in a very closeted way. The Somali Muslim families at my kids' primary school were invited to every birthday party we ever had (when it was an all-class party) but none of them ever came . I don't blame or dislike them for that and it never affected how friendly I was towards them in the playground etc

3)I think you underestimate the trauma of the Holocaust - which is still in living memory - as well as the trauma of the many other mass murders that have affected us in the past century or two.

  1. It is never, ever the fault of any minority group if other people choose to be racist towards them. Ever.
TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 14:55

"There's only one Jewish poster who is telling other Jews that we are inferior or that we don't count"

Yes. A man.
It was ever thus.
Grin

Maireas · 27/04/2023 14:56

@Ortiguilla - 👍 in a nutshell

socialmedia23 · 27/04/2023 14:56

socialmedia23 · 27/04/2023 14:53

Do you ever find it difficult that as a religious Jew, you often live cheek by jowl with people who are far more wealthy. There is a lot of inequality in the UK but I have never seen such a stark contrast except with religious Jews. Like in the same synagogue/school, there is someone who spent £100k on their kid's bar mitzvah and also someone on unemployment benefits. Everyone in between as well..I feel non Jews don't experience this as much as poor people would tend to live in cheaper areas and therefore go to different schools, socialize in very different social circles. To a certain extent all areas in London are mixed but at the same time, it is not as stark due to the different schools in different catchment areas and also ongoing gentrification.
How do you explain this to your children..

I am not saying that most Jews are wealthy or anything like that, its just that given we often live in the same areas, this makes for some very stark differences in wealth. A rich orthodox Jew wouldn't move to Kensington even if he could afford to, he may stay in Hendon if thats where his synagogue is and he would send his child to the same Jewish state schools..

JeweyJew · 27/04/2023 14:59

@OneHurtSpaggettio

I challenge you to find a single one of those 'quotes' in the actual book, rather than on stormfront.

meshuggeneh · 27/04/2023 14:59

@OneHurtSpaggettio are you some kind of passive aggressive antisemite?
Do you believe in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'? I'm getting some really weird vibes from you that you have bizarrely searched the whole Talmud - whcih people study their whole lives - for some phrases which might make your point about Jews being shit to gentiles (which is one of the usual antisemtiic tropes).

No, Jews are not insular because the talmud tells them to be and hate gentiles

JeweyJew · 27/04/2023 15:01

meshuggeneh · 27/04/2023 14:55

@JeweyJew

I think you're a bigot and your explanation has just reinforced that.

You don't get to decide what's authentic Judaism much as you want to think that's your role and you have the lofty position to decide on this. Just as you don't get to decide for others what terms they might find offensive or not even though it's not offensive to you.

To my mind, extreme charedi judaism - like neturei karta or satmar - has deviated far from authentic judaism but I wouldn't dream of deciding for them and telling them that it's not real judaism.

It would help if you first defined 'authentic Judaism' and explain the basis for your definition. BTW Satmar and Neturei Karta are not synonymous.

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 15:01

I see JeweyJew has returned, to do a bit of mansplaining.
Hmm

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