Jewish Orthodox mum AMA

[jewishorthomum]

I'm a 29 yr old Jewish Orthodox religious mum of 2 little boys. Is there anything you'd like to ask about Orthodox Jewish life?
Kill my time whilst I'm waiting to be called in for an appointment.
(When I get called in for my app I'll have to run but will try respond later if there are questions.)

the ultra orthodox community is very scared of its young people leaving.
given that we are not a proselytising religion, the only way to maintain numbers is the natural birth rate. It is true that there are probably more people leaving the faith in masorti, liberal, reform and probably even MO communities. Greater exposure to the wider world empowers people and they may decide differently from their parents. Their parents can tut and disapprove but when a child has gone to university and is on his/her way to getting a career, what can you realistically do? You are just making both parties unhappy by cutting ties and not really achieving very much. It is far better to hope that the child will one day find his or her own way home; indeed i find that people become more religious as they grow older. my DH says he is an atheist, he hasn't been to synagogue regularly since he was a teenager, but lately he has been asking if he can accompany me to synagogue (liberal synagogue but his religious mum would view that as a big improvement). He is 33 this year. I don't think his mum threatening to cut him off when he was younger would have had any positive effects. If his mum had cut him off, he would probably have still gone to university and managed to live independently (though it would have been hard).

Its different for young charedi people. They don't have qualifications, they are often married with babies in tow at a young age. That limits your options for leaving if you are unhappy.

There were three different answers to the conversion question, which is the very jewish thing you guys mentioned :)

1- Judaism is an ethnicity so non-jews can't be made Jews (couldn’t remember who said this) but sounds a bit sad to me that an ethnicity is a prerequisite to a way of believing and following G-d...

2- @amcha, there are multiple paths to G-d and Jews are obligated to their own path, and non-jews should follow their path unless they really believe judaism is their path. I really like this, it is a non-judgemental way of looking at things, which is very different than other religions . So jews do believe there are multiple ways to G-D and theirs is not the one and true path only. Hope I interpreted that correctly?

3- @GrimDamnFanjo , Jews are not unwilling towards conversion but don't seek converts out because of the difficulty involved, fair enough.

Thank you. She's 12 and in year 7. Luckily her classmates (from a huge variety of backgrounds) all rallied round her, so she's doing OK. They have made the boy sign a contract (?) and he had a one-day suspension.

This same boy has also been extremely racist towards Chinese, South Asian and Black students and teachers, it was just my daughter's bad luck to be on the receiving end on that day.

It’s confusing because you say you are non-practicing and then talk about your Rabbi.

I think most people were attracted to this thread to get the Orthodox Jewish view.

NRTFT so not sure if this has been asked.
I discovered through Ancestry DNA that I have 2% Jewish Ancestry. Obviously I don't consider myself jewish whatsoever but it's piqued my curiosity and I follow some Jewish subreddits to learn more. I was surprised how many people, mainly in the US want to or are in the process of converting to some form of judaism. I actually thought it was frowned upon but this indicates otherwise. Some have patrilineal descent (so dad is jewish) or are married to a jewish partner but quite a few have no connection at all with judaism but spiritually feel at home. I found this interesting and wondered if you came across people like this over here.

Jews are obligated to their own path, and non-jews should follow their path unless they really believe judaism is their path. I really like this, it is a non-judgemental way of looking at things, which is very different than other religions . So jews do believe there are multiple ways to G-D and theirs is not the one and true path only. Hope I interpreted that correctly?

I really like this too, if it is correct.

I can't speak for Stamford Hill schools, what they are like, or if they have better boys than girls schools. I know very little about the schools there, but they don't represent the standard of education in most Jewish religious schools.

In Manchester, when I was in high school, the girls school I went to had an excellent reputation at the time. School GCSE results were consistently excellent, they moved to a beautiful new modern premises, with up to date technology, labs etc and it definitely was not filled with trash. The building it was originally in was falling down around our ears. The boys school my brothers was not great at the time, but they have been working very hard to pull their socks up and have fundraised and rebuilt their (very old) premises. There is room for improvement in both schools nowadays, but I think that is similar to the general problems schools nationwide are facing (lack of trained staff, funding, post covid difficulties etc).

Is it essential to bathe in the special pool?
Could you just have a bath or shower?
How do you know that the water is super clean if other women use it?
Where is the special pool?
If you found wearing a wig to be uncomfortable, would you still have to wear one? I wore one during chemo therapy but it was so hot and unbearable that I disgarded it.
Thank you for this enlightening information.

I agree on that point. But someone commented that the others are not religious, and that seemed quite ridiculous.

I am a convert (liberal judaism). I have a Jewish husband but otherwise no Jewish ancestry. I am ethnically Chinese and grew up in a large city in Southeast Asia so I really really don't look Jewish. I am welcomed by the community and most of my friends now are Jewish. I also lived with my MIL for 3 years while saving up to buy our home and she is orthodox so I have experience of living in an orthodox Jewish household as well.

My conversion class was a real mix- lots of spouses but also lots of people who have no familial connection to Judaism but just felt spiritually at home there

I will never ever excuse this kind of behaviour, it's despicable and horrible and needs to change. However, you do realise this happens to many other kids? Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Sikh etc.

I mean of course I realise this. My daughter had actually made an enemy of this boy because she stuck up for her friend, a refugee from Hong Kong, who was being racially abused by this boy with anti-Chinese slurs. He has also been racist towards Indian, Pakistani and Black students and teachers.

However, I've never met a religion that's as insular as the ultra orthodox Jews.

I think there are plenty of very insular religious communities. The Plymouth Brethren, for example, and some Muslim communities (e.g. Somalis). I wouldn't like to compare how insular each of them is. I don't live in a community like tht myself.

I also find the excuse of previous persecution as a reason for insulation uncomfortable.

I don't like the phrasing of this sentence. It's not 'an excuse'. They choose to live this way. They don't need to 'excuse' it. It's not what I would choose for myself and I live very differently from that.

This reads a bit like you think I'm trying to say Jews are special or different or deserve 'more' than other ethnic groups. I don't. I do think, however, that we grew up very much in the shadow of the Holocaust. I don't know any Jews of my age or older who weren't personally affected in some way - I knew several survivors when I was young, and huge swathes of my extended family (parents/grandparents/great grandparents' generations) were murdered. It does leave a scar.

@Ortiguilla Many thanks for your clear reply! I think most of my Jewish friends are progressive and liberal, but obviously there are a lot of different perspectives on religion and same sex relationships. Also, views are often updated and debated within religions. The C of E has started to debate whether God is neither male nor female and the male pronouns are simply a legacy of old fashioned views, for instance.

That's really amazing. Thank you for explaining.
I think the biggest thing this thread has helped me with personally is separating my association of Judaism with the Stanford Hill community. As they're the only Jews I ever had dealings with, that's what I assumed was the religion. It's been really helped to not see it as that. I'm glad other orthodox kids have different experiences.

What really makes someone Jewish? Is it biology? Is it religion? Is it that your Mum is Jewish? Or does it have to be both parents? Is it that you follow the religion? Or is it that you keep the traditions? Does Jewish heritage make you Jewish?

Only halfway through the thread but this raised some questions for me - how do you deal with sports kit, as a lot of running kit is designed to be skintight (leggings for instance), which helps with stopping chafing? Would something like a cap suffice as an head covering, or would you need something more? And could you run on the Sabbath (apologies if that’s the wrong term) if it’s recreational? Would you be allowed to carry a water bottle etc with you? Am also a runner and am fascinated by this! I absolutely cannot deal with anything flappy while I’m running as it drives me mad, so I do go for close fitting stuff out of practicality, and I also love bright leggings, would these be frowned upon for you?

I could never live your life I don’t think, but I’m glad it works for you and thank you for this very interesting thread 😊

There isn't any contradiction between being 'mostly non-practising', which is what I said, and having a Rabbi. I grew up in that congregation and still attend services there semi-regularly.

As I said earlier, I also do Shabbat at home because my kids love it, and we celebrate Pesach and other holidays.

I and the other Jews posting here have all been very clear about our affiliations and particular relationship to religion and community. There's only one Jewish poster who is telling other Jews that we are inferior or that we don't count.

Can we nominate this thread for classics please, @MNHQ?

@JeweyJew Why do you get to decide what's religiously Jewish and not? Maybe orthodox Judaism is fake and reform is right?
You decide what's right for you and your family and leave others to decide for theirs. You're not in charge of world Judaism. Very disrespectful.

It's definitely not seen as purely for procreation. It is a mitzvah (good deed) for a man to give his wife an orgasm

Ok, I was just referring to your first (?) post in which you said ‘I'm a non-practising Jew’.

But I accept you may have clarified on further posts, I haven’t read the whole thread.

@Bookist more detail here:

https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/14-02-01/

The mitzva of ona is for a man to bring pleasure and joy to his wife as best he can and to achieve complete sexual union with her, lovingly and with abundant joy (as explained in 1:2 above). Every man must fulfill this mitzva as frequently as his physical stamina and professional demands allow. For most, this means twice a week (as explained further in section 7 below). A woman, too, has a mitzva to couple with her husband and to enjoy him. The more she enjoys their sexual relations, the greater the mitzva. Their sexual union must be very joyful and pleasurable. Accordingly, the mitzva is called simḥat ona, the joy of marital sexual union. Abstaining from it is deemed a type of torment (Pesaḥim 72b; Avoda Zara 5a; 1:3 above).
The mitzva of ona is independent of the mitzva of procreation. It is fulfilled through marital sexual relations even when they cannot lead to pregnancy, such as when the wife is pregnant or nursing, or when she is after menopause (above, 1:4).
The central element of this mitzva is for the husband to bring complete joy to his wife, to the point where her joy and pleasure climax in orgasm. Short of this, their sexual relations may result in frustration, for the lead-up to orgasm builds up physical and psychological tension that is blissfully released upon orgasm. If she does not experience orgasm, her tensions and frustration will generally remain.

I can't speak for OP, but I can tell you how it works for us?
Both of us work in professional jobs, he works more hours than me, I have a part time very flexible job, which suits me much better. He probably does more housework and life admin overall because I have ADHD and am not particularly good at keeping on top of it and it bothers him more. I do more of the childcare, but because two of our kids have SEN, there used to be a lot of switching in and out to relieve each other when they were younger and it was very intense.
It isn't rigidly split, but we try to play to our strengths, I like cooking so I do most or all cooking, the laundry changes all the time, we both keep on top of it, appointments - whoever is more available, bills admin - him (it would never happen if left to me), night shift - me, I cope better, mornings - him, he copes better, washing up, depends, cleaning, both of us, at the moment more him, but last month he had heavy work deadlines, so it was more on me. But I think it is like any other family, the roles and jobs shift between us depending on what is going on at any point, and things just sort of work. Issues come up like in any family.

JeweyJew

You are very clear about this - I can see. You would be prepared to ' Cut(ting) all contact ' with your children if they married out of the faith.

I married my Jewish DH...34 years ago. His family were inconsolable at the time and made clear at a family meeting at that time that they could not and would not entertain their Son's wish to marry a non jew...Conversely, my family were welcoming of him and grew to love him, for making me happy, and for being a great guy. They adored our two boys, who effectively only ever knew this one set of grandparents.

His family virtually DID disown my DH although he kept contact with his Sister - secretly -and she apparently gave her/his parents news of us and our 2 fabulous boys. DH's parents are now in late 80's and early 90's...and NOW.....there has been a huge amount of regret expressed - by them - and we have a lot of navigating to do. They have eventually asked to meet our children - now in their late 20's. I might add, they embrace the opportunity to meet 'the side' of the family they have never met.

I truly cannot understand your perspective and I will never be able to understand how any family, would cut off a much loved child - on the grounds of ANY kind of religion. I offered to convert when we decided to get married and would have been happy to do so - but it was rejected out of hand as being totally inadequate

I realise this is not the arena to discuss your response in full and you are entitled to your view and feelings...but I just wanted to add my piece having seen at first hand how traumatic the whole issue has been and - seeing the regret now expressed by my DH's family, who made this 'decision' 34 years ago and now express such sorrow for having missed out on a virtual lifetime of knowing the grandchildren they never wanted to meet, but now do.

Would this fear - of regret - ever cross your mind IF one of your children chose happiness over their religion of birth and that of their family of origin?

@Claricethecat45 I am so sorry your husband's family made this awful choice. I'm glad that they have at least come to realise (much too late) that they were wrong, but I know that can never make up for it.
my family is full of interfaith couples and everyone is treated equally.

It's definitely not seen as purely for procreation. It is a mitzvah (good deed) for a man to give his wife an orgasm
😀