One in six PIP claimants have no extra costs linked to their disability

[Allseeingallknowing]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/40693771/pip-claimants-disability-benefit/
So, can money be saved here?

Exactly! So why not just give disabled people the money they need to cover their additional costs?

And some people seem to be rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospect. It is very depressing.

I’d argue she needed help to develop independence and strategies to overcome a tendency not to be self-organised. I don’t know any employer who can provide someone for side-by-side support to ensure someone gets the job done.

But why do you think that there college, her parents and the exercises support arent about developing those skills. People need something to fsupport indeoendence financially whilst they get to the destination (assuming those skills arent such a core part of the dusability that they cant be taught)?

Also the work place is massively different to studying. People can thrive in jobs that didnt in educatiin.

It’s not about patronising. It’s about trying to leverage greater value through economies of scale and ease of administration rather than just cash handouts which many say aren’t enough - any system should ensure people get the support they need whilst balancing cost to tax payer.

But as a disabled person I know my needs best

Again, why just disabled people? Why is everyone else free to spend their benefits on whatever?

No, you can't. Which is exactly why, if a person is trying to find work and can't, (or is genuinely unable to work), they need to be supported to survive.

Yep, it just feels like disabled people are considered too stupid to know what their own needs and costs are.
It really does not take a rocket scientist to work out that everyone's needs are different. Cash is given to reflect that.

And yes, if DLA/PIP is to be vouchers then it is only right and fair to make any payments from the DWP (so that would be pensions too) to be vouchers too.

I get it. My parents are dead, my family (both sides) live in different countries so no-one nearby so it comes down to us paying for what support we need if/ when we need it. If circumstances were to change though we’d have to move closer to family for help (either to receive, or give).

The answer should be self evident.

that’s the crux of my point. Better targeted (and enhanced) spend to better enhance outcomes.

Using vouchers doesn’t necessarily mean there will be greater value through economies of scale. Sticking with taxis as an example, it isn’t unusual for LAs commissioning taxis for school transport to be charged more than the general population would be for the same journey(s). Similar to the example from DSA a pp mentioned. I don’t believe it would be easier or cheaper to administer such a system either.

Again, there’s nothing I’d love more than to move closer to family. Brexit has put paid to that. It would also only be very short lived support as my in laws are elderly, but my child will require life long care.
We also have our other two children to consider, who are settled in their schools/hobbies/with friends.
Do you think we wouldn’t love support from our family? We absolutely would. As it is, DH and I haven’t had an evening out together or slept in the same bed for 7 years.
Again, the fact that people think we are willingly choosing this life for the sake of £500pm DLA absolutely blows my mind.

Which would be a waste of time for carers like me who also receive UC. Any carers allowance I get is taken straight out of my UC.

What's your experience with disability and the benefits system?

Not everyone did. When I researched my family tree, I was surprised to find widows/widowers ending up as lodgers, or more predictably in the work house in old age in Victorian times, when censuses kept track of people’s addresses and occupations. Some were described as “paupers”, and I assume were supported by local relief?

I also found some ancestors ended up in prison or being transported, often for stealing food. It’s not hard to see what their motive was!

People always need to think - why was the current system invented? Look at what happened before, and usually it didn’t work well for everyone - I’d say the treatment of the disabled and elderly in workhouses left a lot to be desired.

IMO, the state being able to control what people spend their money, and in particular not allowing them to use cash, is sleep walking into “1984” and “Brave New World”. I don’t know why some people think it’s acceptable, to infantilise millions of people, doing their best, on account of the feckless spending of a few? Would they like it, if the state took control of the spending of all parents to ensure they looked after their children properly? I’d say child neglect is a more serious problem for society, than a few benefit cheats?

ITA it’s about punishing the vulnerable, who don’t have the time, energy and ability to fight back; because some people find “normal” lives are stressful - it’s a metaphor for them kicking the dog?

What happens when people get cancelled for not complying with government diktats - shut out of the banking system?

The longest hospital stay my disabled child has had is 10 months.

Days off for an op isn't unusual for a non disabled child. If you have a disabled child like my son, just a few days for my disabled child would be unusual.

Ok I'm going to bite.
I have 2 stories to tell. I adopted my son aged 8. He was in special school and so delayed that the idea of GCSEs seemed a step too far. He has ASD and developmental trauma, anxiety becsuse of his history. I'm not going to tell you what I spent his DLA, and later PIP, on because it will cause the frothers to explode.
However, as a result of what I did spend it on, and a couple of excellent schools, I now have a 22 year old doing an MSc at uni. He lives independently, runs a car, has held down a part time job in Tesco alongside his studies. He will be a fully functioning tax paying member of society. But its taken a heck of a lot of work to get him there. We have decided however, that we no longer feel PIP is justified and he has stopped his claim.
Then there is me. This time last year after a lifetime in the civil service I was working as a foster carer. I was healthy or so I thought. Turns out I was harbouring a nasty tumour. I was diagnosed with secondary breast cancer in February, which means it is incurable. My cancer is aggressive, so my treatment has been aggressive. I lost my job and my income overnight, foster carers don't get sick leave or sick pay.

I have a very small pension, less than state pension, which after a lot of pruning, doesnt cover all my outgoings, including food. It certainly didnt cover things I'd never even though about it such as hospital car park charges which at one point were costing in excess of £35 a week.
So what can the benefit system offer me -
JSA, can't claim because I'm obviously not job seeking at the moment and the pension excludes me.
ESA - I meet the criteria but they won't pay me any money because, despite having paid NI for over 30 years, I hadn't paid in the last two years because foster carers are exempt from NI and I hadn't claimed the credits. So I claimed the credits - not enough , they are the wrong type of NI. A relative has given me the money to pay the right class of NI so hopefully that will satisfy DWP - but they will reduce the benefit by 50% because of the pension.
Half way through my chemo, my oncologist completed an SR1 form, which got me PIP, otherwise I would be in serious financial difficulty.
Is PIP the right benefit? Honestly I don't know. I would be happy to be able to access my state pension early as I'm unlikely to live long enough for it to be paid to me for a significant time, or even the full ESA.
At the moment I'm not fit to work. Maybe in 6 months or so I will be able to, I don't know. But who is going to give a 62 year old cancer patient, who would require time off for ongoing treatment, a job?
I've worked since I was 21, paid my tax and NI, saved the tax payer a small fortune my taking a child out of the care system, and the benefits system has not really been there for me.
This could happen to any you - illness or accident. Then you will find out the hard way just how difficult this is.

Yeah, I was thinking about the level of care vs a non disabled child.
My eldest was quite seriously ill when she was 5. She had a period of 2 months where she was in and out of hospital, and of course I had to stay with her/do all of the care/everything you do for your child. We don’t have family, but friends rallied around and helped us out for that period.
With my disabled child, I've had to give a similar level of care to that for 7 years. It will only end when he dies. Of course our friends can’t rally around indefinitely to help out, it’s entirely on us. There is no one to help.
It just isn’t comparable, and I’m not sure why people who haven’t dealt with having a disabled child are even trying to compare it. They have no idea.

Have you personally ever cared for adult family members?

But that spending and systems need to be put in place before you take PIP off people. They won’t do that.
Clearly schools need a huge amount of money invested in general and SEN support. It’s not happening though and there’s no appetite to do it.
There needs to be jobs available for people with disabilities and for their carers that are actually flexible and supported.
We need better public transport again, not just in cities.
Taking PIP off people won’t make these things happen though. You’ll just make peoples lives worse with zero help.

So you don't have an answer then? You want to implement a system but can't explain how this will work in reality. Which is the problem, in reality it won't work.

some people can't afford to give lifts for free. I know someone who recently had someone drive them over a hundred miles to a specialist hospital. Petrol is expensive, it's a 200 mile return journey and will likely happen frequently for a while. If you can afford to do that out of the goodness of your heart lucky you. Most people can't, not to mention they're possibly also losing a days wage to help in the first place.

I agree that the expectation that the government solves all problems is a big part of the problem, as is the lack of means testing for some benefits. Everyone loves free money, so politicians give it to them.

The bigger issue is that the benefits bill has grown to the point of being unsustainable. Foreign investors are demanding higher yields on government bonds, which reduces what the government can borrow and raises borrowing costs. And borrowing to fund benefits is like putting your grocery shopping on a credit card. Eventually, the bond market will refuse to lend to the UK at all; then you're looking at an IMF bailout, mandatory budget cuts, and a massive economic recession.

If the UK had stronger economic growth and growth in labor productivity, it might all be affordable, but very high taxes and excessive government regulation suppress economic growth and investment. Additional tax rises will just make things worse in the medium and long term.

But people think that an economic crisis can't happen in the UK; it's happened before. From The Economist:

Lessons from Britain’s humiliating IMF bail-out - Fifty years on, a fiscal crisis would play out very differently

You can always find a group of people who would benefit from government funding, but at some point there's no money to provide it.

Exactly. With a disabled child, it isn't going to end.

My son has had 5 surgeries with at least 1 more upcoming.
He has had 3 stays in paediatric intensive care
If he gets a fever, it can kill him and he needs to be in hospital immediately

He can't just go to the local hospital. He needs to be at the specialist hospital 30 miles away.

How would I be able to 'plan' his unexpected hospital stays with a voucher?
What if I run out if he has more hospital stays than expected and have no cash?
What if the ambulance says it's going to be 6 hours like it did one time when I called them?

Or I can just use the motability car as intended and not have to rely on vouchers when my son's life is at risk.

Some people really are clueless.

My point was re. The toilet roll square calc which is relatively straight forwards and a poor example for the poster to have chosen.