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FL thread 2

997 replies

mortil2 · 04/07/2015 07:20

To follow on so to not lose what is such an interesting thread

OP posts:
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47
Eyespying · 05/07/2015 09:05

TheNameIWantedIstaken

You might be interested to know that, about 3 years ago, I was contacted by an anonymous person claiming to be an 'Israeli journalist' who asked me what I knew about an 'MLM' called 'GTEAM,' because it was recruiting 'thousands of ex-soldiers in Israel.'

'GTEAM' turned out to be 'Herbalife,' and in 2013, this jaw-dropping article appeared in the Israeli media.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2013/05/herbalife-exposed-as-cult-in-israel.html

xenu1 · 05/07/2015 09:15

Oh dear. Eyespring I have stopped posting in the old FL thread, hoping you would calm down. My 2c.

  1. Your work on FL and MLMs is wonderful; your site mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/forever-living-products-flp-is-mlm.html is very valuable and a worthy addition to the MLM-expose sites! many thanks!
  1. Your description of the family havoc and inheritance issues at mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=brother is detailed and moving. Though it is intense and I wonder whether this experience has clouded your judgement?
  1. You make some very strange allegations (yesterday, for example): "Earlier, I did try calmly to explain that, given the quantifiable evidence, it is my considered opinion that 'MLM', or 'Prosperity Gospel,' cultism, has become the one of the most profitable, alarming and significant developments of the criminogenic cult phenomenon since the demise of the so-called 'Third Reich.'"

This is lunatic. The MLM frauds need exposing but to compare them to the Nazis is ridiculous and counter-productive. It spoils your argument.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 09:51

Xenu1 - I think you are the one who ought to calm down.

Previously, I calmly explained the emotional reaction of persons like yourself to my rational, evidence-based, historical analysis of the 'MLM' phenomenon. I said that the truth about the 'MLM' phenomenon has become almost unthinkable. Thus, you are actually proving the validity of my overall analysis, but you seem incapable of comprehending this.

You don't appear to have read or understood what I have actually written; for your continued pretence that I am an isolated 'lunatic' making an inappropriate, unfounded and simplistic comparison of 'MLM' cults to 'Nazism,' because my 'judgement has become clouded,' is itself inappropriate, simplistic and without foundation.

In reality, the quantifiable evidence shows that no other form of latter-day cultism has touched lives of so many people around the world, since WWII.

'MLM' cultism is undoubtedly part of an ongoing historical phenomenon.

I would refer you to the work of Eric Voegelin, who (according to your flawed-logic), was a 'lunatic.'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Voegelin

Erich Hermann Wilhelm Voegelin (1901-1985), was, in fact, a gifted German academic, who, in the decade preceding WWII (working largely-alone), produced an insightful explanation of ‘Nazism’ as a form of perverted religion or cult, but presented in a thought-stopping 'political' code. Sadly, during the 1930s, few people took much notice of Eric Voegelin. Indeed, some people dissmissed him as a 'dangerous crackpot.'

Whilst teaching political theory and sociology at the University of Vienna, Voegelin published two books, ‘The Race Idea in Intellectual History’ and ‘Race and the State’. In these, he pointed out the elementary, mistakes which invalidated various, popular ‘racial theories’.

In 1938, Voegelin (aged 37) tried to publish 'The Political Religions'. In this, he focused on contemporary totalitarian ideologies derived from the ‘racial theories’ which he’d previously criticised as absurd pseudo-science. He now pointed out the glaring structural similarities of these ideologies to religions and secret societies. Courageously, Voegelin was comparing medieval pseudo-sciences and 'Gnostic' cults to the 'Völkish’ or ‘Pan-German’ movement and its terrifying post-WWI incarnation, the 'Nazi party'.

In 1938, the ‘Nazi’ leader, Adolf Hitler, had held absolute power in Germany for almost 5 years. He had just taken control of Austria. The self-gratifying ‘Aryan Master Race’ delusion was spreading like a virus. In essence, Hitler controlled his fanatical core-adherents by peddling as fact an emotionally, and intellectually, overwhelming comic-book fiction in which he was a morally and intellectually perfect Aryan super hero, the 'führer,' on a mission to save his 'pure and noble race' from the slavery of the world financial/political system which had fallen under the control of an 'evil secret society of degenerate sub-humans - Jews, Freemasons, Communists,' etc.

The dozens of books, essays and reviews which Eric Voegelin published during his lifetime, are almost impossible for the average person to take in.

To give readers some idea of the scale of his thinking, Voegelin’s Major work, ‘Order and History’, began to be published in the USA in 1956 when he was aged 54, but it remained unfinished when he died 31 years later.

In simple terms, Voegelin was as a philosopher-historian who took an elevated, and broad, view. He observed that, throughout human history, there have been periods of mass-alienation... following wars, revolutions, plagues, natural disasters, economic depressions, etc. ... during these periods, dangerous manipulators (acting like ancient, Gnostic Prophets by pretending moral and intellectual authority and offering some form of Utopian existence in the here and now) who at other times might be dismissed as absurd crackpots and charlatans, have found it much easier to become accepted as authentic Messiahs and to acquire a mass-following.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 10:53

Xenu1 - After dealing with your blanket dissmissal of my own (and Eric Voegelin's thoughts), I'm now interested to know what evidence-based argument you are putting forward to refute my evidence-based analysis of 'MLM' cults as being part of the ongoing totalitarian phenomenon, or to challenge my further analysis that totalitarianism, or totalism, itself is enduring, but its camouflage is ephemeral.

Remember, many of my published articles on the 'MLM' phenomenon, have been preceded by this invitation to think, but again you don't seem to have read this invitation or undertood it:

In 1945, whilst most, contemporary mainstream commentators were unable to look beyond the ends of their noses, with a perfect sense of irony, Eric Arthur Blair a.k.a. George Orwell (1903-1950) presented fact as fiction in an insightful 'fairy story' entitled, 'Animal Farm.' He revealed that totalitarianism is merely the oppressors' fiction mistaken for fact by not only the oppressed, but also by useful idiots.

In the same universal allegory, Orwell described how, at a time of vulnerability, almost any people's dream of a future, secure, Utopian existence can be hung over the entrance to a totalitarian deception. Indeed, the words that are always banished by totalitarian deceivers are, 'totalitarian' and 'deception.'

Sadly, when it comes to examining the same enduring phenomenon, albeit with an ephemeral 'Capitalist' label, most contemporary, mainstream commentators have again been unable to look further than the ends of their noses. However, if they followed Orwell's example, and did some serious thinking, this is the reality-inverting nightmare they would find.

AbsentMindedNumpty · 05/07/2015 10:53

I get what you mean, eye about the practices used by MLMs which cause its subjects to behave with blind obedience (even if deep inside they may have a doubt). There are countless examples of this everywhere. Comparing the Mum structure to say, nazism, is certainly on the surface, crazy. However, how else can you persuade ordinary people to do horrific things to other people except by exploiting human weaknesses? MLMs can be compared to the cult of nazism only in that they use similar strategies to manipulate others to do their bidding.

This morning I see a newspaper article showing a picture of 25 kneeling men waiting to be executed by 25 young teens. Just ordinary teen boys. How does this happen? Why have the boys agreed to do this horrific crime? How?

I remember reading about an experiment which highlights exactly the same 'blind obedience' behaviour. eye, you probably already know of it. People were recruited to operate an electric shock machine, wired to a subject being questioned. The people in authority told the volunteers to increase the level of shock being given. The volunteers didn't see the subjects (in next room) but heard their cries and screams. Interestingly, the majority of volunteers continued to obey instructions despite hearing the 'distress' from the subject being questioned. Because someone in authority told them to do it, they did. There were a few who would not continue, risking displeasure of the authority figure. The subjects were not of course wired to any machine but just cried and screamed like they were being hurt.

You can see examples of this sort of behaviour everywhere, MLMs merely exploit it in order to compel people to do their bidding. At the end, it cannot be sustained (unless you have sociopathic tendencies perhaps). How many MLM casualties are out there?

AbsentMindedNumpty · 05/07/2015 10:55

Mum should read MLM Grin (blooming phone)!

Also, as well as Animal Farm, 1984 is another good example.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 11:17

AbsentMindedNumpty

Thank-you for thinking!

According the Xenu1, Stanley Milgram must also have been a lunatic.

In reality, Stanley Milgram simply proved that it's child's play to persuade virtually anyone obey instructions and to get them to commit murder.

It goes without saying that the 'Nazis' were neither original nor unique.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 11:22

AbsentMindedNumpty

By the way, I was effectively murdered by members of my own family who were acting under the influence of their 'Amway MLM' handlers.

Following the totalitarian 'Amway MLM' narrative, my family were conditioned to believe that, by cheating and destroying me, they were only acting in my long-term interests.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 11:36

AbsentMindedNumpty

You might also be interested in this psychological experiment, which incidentally was almost certainly in breech of the Nuremberg Code.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 12:46

AbsentMindedNumpty - For obvious reasons, most people base their view of 'Nazism' exclusivey on what we know about it now (with the benefit of hindsight). However, for a long time, the full-truth about the 'Nazi' nightmare remained hidden from, and unthinkable to, most people (including large sections of the German population who were terrified to face reality as well as constantly bombarded with reality-inverting propaganda).

I would invite members of MN to consider the fact (which is often ignored) that, before millions of 'Nazi' victims were secretly slaughtered in human abattoirs, all of their property was stripped from them using laws which had been enacted in the German parliament. These laws systematically categorized a significant percentage of German citizens as 'sub-human.' Unlike the Holocaust, this mass-theft was carried out in full public view and was often cheered by ordinary people.

The point I'm making, is that exactly the same closed-logic, 'good vs evil,' comic-book scenario that was used by the 'Nazi' leadership as the false justification for mass theft, was later used for mass murder.

MerdeAlor · 05/07/2015 13:22

I get where you are both coming from.

Eyespying, you have so much information about this and have clearly spent lots of time on it, as Xenu has recognised. You do seem a little obsessed and intense though, forcing perhaps a deeper agenda than is warranted for a thread of this type.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 13:37

MerdeAlor - Unfortunately, I was again led into expanding and justifying my position, by Xenu1's blanket dissmissal of my overall analysis of the 'MLM' phenomenon, as 'lunatic.'

No one is forcing anyone to accept my overall analysis, all I keep doing is politely asking witnesses to small parts of the 'MLM' phenomenon, to look more widely and think more deeply.

This is an absolutely huge problem, and its getting worse.

Apparently, we now live in world where anyone taking a morally, and/or intellectually, rigorous approach to this ongoing problem, risks being branded as 'obsessed and intense,' but I've understood that for a long time.

'MLM' cult instigators have survived by making the full truth about what they are really doing, unthinkable to casual observers.

MerdeAlor · 05/07/2015 17:51

One can be intellectual, rigorous, obsessive and intense all at the same time. Indeed, sometimes these things go hand in hand and are born out of necessity.

I feel a bit bad for posting what my FLbot put on her FB wall, but it's irresistible isn't it Grin

lastuseraccount123 · 05/07/2015 17:58

no updates from my bot today. Maybe she's dealing with massive order Wink

xenu1 · 05/07/2015 18:09

This is getting us nowhere. Eyespying I simply do not appreciate using the Nazis as a comparison with a MLMfraud. It is absurd to compare a financial bait-and-switch scam with an organisation responsible for countless millions of dead and the worst calamity in human history. If you don't agree then we have nothing to say. I just feel that for most people, and perhaps for FL-bots advised o this thread as an antidote to their programming, calling them Nazi's is counter-productive. That many cults use mindcontrol is true, but there are huge degrees in kind.

Again, you state "By the way, I was effectively murdered by members of my own family who were acting under the influence of their 'Amway MLM' handlers. "

If you were murdered, how are you posting here? :) Again, your hyperbole spoils your argument (tho its not as offensive as comparing the Nazi murderers to MLM scam artists!).

Can't you see this?

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 18:48

Xenu1 As I have stated before, I'm not interested in what you appreciate or do not appreciate; what I am interested in, is the truth.

Clearly, we are not confronted with a common or garden 'financial bait and switch scam' here. We are confronted with a form of self-perpetuating, esoteric or non-rational, ritual belief system instigated for the clandestine purpose of human exploitation. Obviously, there is fraud hidden by the Utopian fairy story entitled 'MLM income opportunity', but it's fraud combined with a totalistic thought thought reform program.

As for your further comment, I stated that I was effectively murdered by members of my own family who were acting under the influence of their 'Amway MLM' handlers. This is not a hyperbolic exaggeration, it is an accurate statement of fact. I no longer was considered to be an individual by my 'Amway-controlled family. I was seen as a villainous character in an 'us vs them, negative vs positive' comic-book fiction. One friend (an Iranian Jew who escaped the Islamic revolution in the 1970s) even observed that I was now like a Jew in a family of 'Nazis.'

The last time I saw my mother, she had turned into a robotic monster reciting lines she had been fed by my brother and his 'Amway' handlers. She screamed that she knew that I was trying to kill her with childish lies about my brother and 'Amway' in order to steal her money, and that if ever I visited her home again she would send for the police.

When my mother died in 2004, I'd not seen her for 7 years. My brother made no attempt to tell me that my mother was dead for 6 months. At that time, not even her own lawyers ( of 40 years standing) knew that my mother was dead.

You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about, and I'm beginning to think that you might be an adolescent or a student.

throwingpebbles · 05/07/2015 18:52

Maybe we should set up a breakaway thread xenu I am afraid I agree that whilst not doubting the sincerity of eyes I think his dominance of this thread has massively diluted its ability to have an impact.
I've got two first class degrees but even I find eyes posts heavy going! And the hyperbolic tone actually makes it more easy for people to dismiss the content

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 19:18

throwingpebbles - You will recall that I extended an invitation to MN members to contact me directly. I almost withdrew from this thread, but I was drawn back by members who are evidently thirsting for a full analysis of the 'MLM' phenomenon.

That said, I fully-appreciate that whilst this thread remained lighthearted, it probably was helping some potential 'FL' recruits and doubting adherents.

You have also made an excellent point, because if you (with two degrees) find it hard to follow the full analysis of 'MLM' cultic racketeering, what chance has the average victim?

MerdeAlor · 05/07/2015 19:28

Eyespying - please. You have been both appreciated and challenged. I think you are being rude and frighteningly obsessive in your last post to Xenu.

You have said your piece many, many times. Please listen to other posters and their tone.

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 19:34

MerdeAlor - And saying that I'm a 'lunatic and obsessed' is not rude?

throwingpebbles · 05/07/2015 19:55

I don't find it hard to follow, eyespying I just think it would be perfectly possible to express the same concepts but much more succinctly and that that would have a far greater impact

throwingpebbles · 05/07/2015 19:57

In fact I suspect if you rewrote your blog into "plain English" it would have a far wider reach. There is a real merit in explaining complicated concepts clearly and precisely

Eyespying · 05/07/2015 20:28

throwingpebbles Thanks for that clarification and your thoughtful advice.

In my defence, I would say that, out of habit, I like to maintain a very high standard of written English. I'm always trying to be accurate rather than succint and I'm not helped by the fact that I probably know far too much about cultism. I have studied a large number of groups, not just 'MLM' cults. In the final analysis, if you disregard their ultimate results, cults all exhibit the same universal identifying characteristics.

Cultism is a notoriously difficult, and divisive, subject to write about. Years back, the journalist and fim-maker, Tony Thompson (who wrote one of the most insightful and entertaining explanations of 'Amway' ever to appear in the mainstream media), told me that I would find that people can either see how all cults are part of one phenomenon, or they can't.

What's been going on here on the MN thread, demonstrates that Tony was perfectly correct, and I freely admit that I tend to address people who can see how cultism functions.

throwingpebbles · 05/07/2015 20:37

You can't see that many of us are accepting your basic point in its entirety. We are just tired of you making it multiple times and at great length

throwingpebbles · 05/07/2015 20:38

It is possible to be both accurate and succinct.

I have just spent two days rewriting a colleagues report after everyone refused to read it because he prioritised verbosity over clarity

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