DS trans - I am GC - how to talk and avoid conflict

[Inapickleiam]

Hi, name changed for this for obvious reasons.

DS has been at Uni for a year. Had a great time. Told me at Christmas he is, I think, pansexual, i.e. attracted to a person, could be boy, girl, whatever. This didn’t bother / surprise me. He now has a GF who is trans.

This summer a few things have been different and I had a suspicion he might be planning to say he is trans too and some other things have now occurred that have confirmed this suspicion & he is now using a female name at Uni.

We haven’t spoken about it so I want to get my thoughts and words straight. I am GC, he knows that, we have argued about it before.

Maybe we won’t speak about it, he will be a girl a Uni and stay the same at home & maybe this is for the best?

Ultimately I love and adore him and really don’t want there to be issues between us. I would struggle to accept calling him anything other than a man, because I just don’t ‘believe’ it. My biggest fear is medical intervention and doing anything that is permanent or might damage him. Secondary fears are the consequences to his family, career, relationships, plus, I guess, a belief that it is a fad, a trend, he is going along with the crowd, he doesn’t actually have a medical condition of gender disphoria. I am also acutely aware that the trans community is very welcoming and almost encourages estrangement from disapproving parents and I desperately do not want this to happen to us but fear if I fully expressed my views, I would be pushing him into the arms of this, well, it feels like a cult.

So, I think I am looking for advice on how to tackle these conversations.

Please help, I have read this back and know I sound fairly calm but actually, I am having palpitations and sleepiness nights over this!

thanks.

Let me tell you something. These feelings will pass IF you keep him away from this ideology. They will resolve. He may well always be gender non-conforming and that's ok. That doesn't mean he is a girl. It means he will be his own man on his own terms and that is beautiful. Cultivate hobbies and interests with him here in physical reality NOT online. Keep him away from one-sided echo chambers. He will be vulnerable to them especially if he is neurodiverse.

Transition will not 'fix' whatever he feels is wrong. It will give him an apparently supportive echo chamber which might feel like friendship - but only until the day he inadvertently expresses a heresy. See how detransitioners are treated by the trans community. They're no different from cults shunning ex members.

If you haven't already done so I urge you to read Trans by Helen Joyce.

How do you keep Uni age kids away from ideology though? Or somehow get them to understand that transitioning fixes nothing? It’s all very well stating these things but it’s incredibly difficult to stop someone entering a cult / believing what they believe to be true.

@Xrays

'Have you actually met any young trans women recently? Because the trans friends that dd has don’t fit this stereotype. Genuinely wouldn’t know they were trans until dd told us. All of them - they’re all aged 19-21- have been on hormones and puberty blockers (privately, mostly funded by their own part time work) since they were 14ish. Currently on the waiting list for surgery. They have curves, they’re slim, size 6-8 like dd, feminine. They’re not obviously male in any sense, even facially. When dressed up for an night out you genuinely wouldn’t know, infact dh showed someone at work a photo the other day of dd next to 2 of them and because he chats to them about things and they hadn’t actually seen a photo of dd before they asked whether dd was the trans one. These are the trans women walking amongst us, using toilets - and I would rather dds friends- who are vulnerable young adults - use the female toilets because they are far more likely to cause shock and attention when using the men’s. When using the women’s people do not realise they are trans. There is no issue, no weird looks. My elderly ex parents in law have met them all and do not have a clue they are trans - and they would absolutely query it if they suspected; they’re very close to dd and have lots of conversations about these things.'

Oh, women know. Please do not fool yourself. Them deceiving elderly people doesn't make it okay. Them infiltrating women's toilets doesn't make it okay.

Why aren't the men budging over to make room for them? Oh, because that'd be dangerous for them. So men are therefore given free access to women's spaces.

The latest British Social Attitudes survey reveals that the ONLY grouping there is less tolerance to is trans.

While I don't wish to malign other posters, I suspect the number of happy and super pretty boys who've been mainlining puberty blockers and female hormones on part time wages since the age of 14 and who are indistinguishable from young women is vanishingly small. And it's astonishing that they all share a house of interchangeable pronouns with @Xrays super inclusive daughter.

For some reason X-rays thinks it's really important these drug taking men meet their daughter's grandparents. Not sure why. Gaslighting the older generation?

Although I don't agree with you at all on transgenderism, if your child ends up changing their mind what's the harm? Yes there are changes you can't go back from, but it's not the be all and end all, they will still have a happy fulfilled life, which will 100% be better with their mother in it.

They will have to talk about these long term issues and consequences with many therapists, the waiting lists are long, and if it ends up being a phase wouldn't you be happier knowing that they can always talk to you about what's bothering them instead of feeling too scared for fear of your judgment?

If society made detrans people feel less silly, or were used less as proof to make trans people not transition, I (another trans person) think that more people would be open to exploring their options and even detransitioning without the judgment, and less harsh moves like cutting off family etc. If they do change their mind it will be hard for them, but if your relationship is permanently severed they won't necessarily come running back to you if you didn't listen to them during their time of need. just my 2 cents

Sometimes I do feel like being anti trans is a way for some "GC" people to just air the old, homophobic views that they always held but which had become taboo to voice over the past 25 years or so. There are some legitimate, well argued and feminist view points surrounding the gender critical movement, but some of the views and some of the people are definitely homophobic!

@Inapickleiam this isn't the moment for you to express to your child what you feel or what you believe is right about the wider trans movement. All you need to do is be there and be kind. Good luck.

What's the harm? Permanent bone damage and possible disability in your 50s on maybe!

You don't think that 2 biological men in a relationship who are claiming to be female and lesbian is homophobic and also misogynistic?

Views like that are going to be mocked for as it's insane.

Sometimes I do feel like being anti trans is a way for some "GC" people to just air the old, homophobic views that they always held but which had become taboo to voice over the past 25 years or so.

Bollocks. Females can't even be lesbians anymore without having men try and take that off them too, or being called transphobic for not accepting 'lady dick'. The trans lobby are doing those with a genuine dysphoria more harm than good.

What Clymene said.

but being trans isn't the same as a sexual orientation.

And OP doesn't have to give up being GC - why on earth should she? Her DC can offer her the same respect as she offers them by not dismissing her reluctance to buy into gender issues.

So they need to renegotiate their relationship to preserve mutual understanding and respect. That may involve some topics being off limits, and it may involve some really creative language if OP is reluctant to adopt the new pronouns. In short, the DC needs to adopt an adult relationship with their mother and vice versa.

(interesting comment by OP though, that so often these DCs go through uni with parental support then go NC.)

Yes there are changes you can't go back from, but it's not the be all and end all, they will still have a happy fulfilled life

Once they've dealt with the trauma of losing healthy body parts, sexual function and the scars - yes, perhaps.

I've never met a GC person who is homophobic so far. I don't see there's anything more homophobic than sterilising gay kids, though.

Once they've dealt with the trauma of losing healthy body parts, sexual function and the scars - yes, perhaps.

Well after all, only a tiny percentage of medical transitioners have expressed regrets, it's statistically unlikely and not all of those detrans people are anti medical transition, and still live happy lives, yes with regrets but more ppl die of GD than detrans. Whether or not you believe that GD is valid is up to you, but having an understanding and listening mum who will listen both detrans with regrets, and trans with no regrets will reduce any of the harmful mental impacts significantly.

only a tiny percentage of medical transitioners have expressed regrets

Where are you getting your data for this?

Actually he is very well travelled. More at thee luxury end of the scale, mind. I think it is unlikely we will do any more long trips together during his Uni holidays, he now holidays with Uni friends (from his LGBT… bubble). Agree travel opens your eyes and I encourage him to do a year abroad as part of his degree but encourage is about all we can do with this age group. I do agree with your sentiment and will increase my efforts at subtly putting these thoughts in his mind but making a confident 20 year do something is quite an ask.
PubMed is very much on his radar actually, he has read (& discussed with me) a lot of research papers on his own health condition but we have not discussed transitioning!

This is misinformation
There are no studies or follow up on transition. Which is very off and odd for experimental surgery to begin with. So no data set to state this.
The only evidence we have is 60% of rapid onset detransition.

Also i have never seen any evidence that gd leads to suicide at all. Suicide rates are highest 6 years after medical transition.

@Boomboom22 re “The only evidence we have is 60% of rapid onset detransition.” Could you offer a source for this statistic?
(sorry OP to derail your thread — will reply specifically to you later).

@Boomboom22 you talk an awful lot about misinformation for someone spouting the 6 years after and 60% rapid onset detransition statistics.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

here is my source about suicidal ideation in transgender people. I think I found your link that cites the 60% figure, and the stat is cherry picked. it refers to results gotten from a group of detransitioners, 60% of whom cited reconciliation with their birth gender as their reason, and also did not mention it as rapid onset. If there is another article I'm missing, do send it on, I'd love to read it.

@julesagainstana thanks for the post. The headline date in your link is, indeed, worrisome. But the article is not very helpful as (1) it does not define “transgender” and (2) does not define whether the study group includes people who have fully transitioned and are living as there adopted gender or whether it includes people who are in the process of transitioning or those who are thinking about transitioning but encountering social/familial/financial/medical obstacles. So it is difficult to draw any conclusions from the data.

If I was in your shoes I would pay for a trip away. A big one in the Xmas hols? Or reading week? I’d have to put it on the credit card even in my imaginary scenario but I see physical distance from the influence of his well meaning (I’ll say that) but ultimately damaging and harmful trans friends as the only shot you have here to get through to him.

OP — I am sorry you are facing this challenge! I might be in a similar situation as DS is a strong lgbtq “ally” and we wonder if he might be preparing to tell us he is “non-binary”. I don’t think he would wish to “transition” but he definitely seems very open, is very defensive of trans friends and seems fully captured by trans ideology. It is a constant struggle for me to engage with his world because I feel such a strong cognitive dissonance (ie referring to someone who is obviously female as “he” or someone who is obviously male as “she”).
when we have discussion (usually at his initiative), I do express my views (essentially: I oppose gender self-ID and I think teens and young adults should be encourage to accept their bodies whilst expressing themselves (through clothing, etc) as they wish.). I constantly worry, though, that because he knows my views, he will increasingly keep parts of his life secret from us and we might be the “last to know” if he were to decide to change his identity.
what upsets me about our conversations is the feeling that he is truly indoctrinated — being immersed in a steady diet of trans ideology through his friends and all of their recommended readings.
the idea of proposing a trip is a good one. However, this awful thing called the internet is available almost everywhere — so it would be a challenge to get him to disconnect from his friends, unless you plan a very active holiday with little time to be on-line.

Best wishes to you, OP. I hope you are able to sustain a relationship with your son and also encourage him to take time — lots of time — to think about his body and his life.

It's not about hate! It's about worry. The worry about what is going to happen to your son when he realises that he isn't ever going to be a woman. No matter how many hormones he takes, or surgery he has. He'll always be a biological male. At some point that will hit home and it will be awful.

We all want these troubled teenagers to get the help they need and be happy. It's just that the help they need is therapy to understand why they feel so uncomfortable in their bodies, so adrift from reality. Your poor boy. I hope he gets the help he actually needs before it's too late. He's a victim in this madness.

OP have you watched any of the Gender: A wider lense? The recent one with Peter Borgossian was really good in terms of role play between parents and kids who identify as trans.

I'm firmly in the GC camp so understand your angst.