Re: DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy.

[crazyhat]

In reference to the suspended thread titled "DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy." I am the 16 year old, writing it from my mother's point of view, everything I said is true, and my mother and I stand by what I said. See, a few weeks ago she told me that when I first started transitioning, she came to mumsnet for help, and was met by people telling her to not endorse it, and other things that (with hindsight) are blatently transphobic. You are all free to your own opinions, I can't stop that. But I genuinely can't describe the feeling I have towards my body, it's such an extreme disconnect, and I know that transitioning is genuinely the only solution. I am very greatful that my parents support me, unlike many parents, evidently are on here. I'm sorry to anyone who feels decieved, but I was genuinely just doing it to have a sense of understanding of what my parents generation think, and to be brutally honest, it was borderline concerning. I feel sorry for people who's have to hear "advice" from some of you. However I, and my situation, is very much real.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3732775-DS-is-transgender-ftm-16-and-happy

OP
Our concern for children transitioning probably feels, to you, unsupportive. It's often called "hate" and "transphobic".

We would call it concern born of experience.

There have always been trans people; a tiny number, whose lives were genuinely made better and happier by transitioning.

Since 2010 something different has been happening. There has been such a huge explosion of teens identifying as trans. Over 4000 percent increase in those who take it far enough to get referred to the Tavistock. This disproportionately affects natal girls (XX) who as children had not expressed repeatedly and insistently that they were uncomfortable in their gender.

Those of us who are now adults, parents, we worry about this. We don't hate you, we don't deny your existence. We worry that this may be at least in part a different form of teen subculture like punks, goths, emos etc except that with this one, you do stuff to yourself that will potentially affect you for the rest of your life.

You might say the spike in transmen as teens is simply because we're more broad-minded, it's less of a taboo and more socially acceptable. But that doesn't stack up. Because if it were just more acceptable to present as the man you always felt like now - where are the late transitioning women? Where are the women in their 30s, 40s and 50s who are now finally able to become their "true selves" and become transmen? If it's just that our generation was oppressed from living that way, why aren't we transitioning now? It's because the vast majority of us no longer feel dysphoric. We may be lesbians, we may be gender presentation non conforming women, we are all sorts of people - but we don't feel like we have to "become" men.

We don't hate any of you. We want our teen kids to be happy, we want you to be ok. We want you to live fulfilling lives. We want you to be mentally and physically healthy. We accept that there were always, through history, a small number of people who need to live as if they are the opposite sex to find peace. We don't see that every teen who comes out as trans is correct that this is the only pathway for them, because we know that brains do change and mature. We wouldn't mind, though, if it was just a name and clothing change, a social transition, nothing permanent. But it scares us when our children start to take hormones and remove body parts that will potentially make them sterile and medically dependent throughout their life, when the stats suggest and looking at society suggests that many of them are not making the only choice to bring themselves long term peace of mind.

We don't hate our kids. We love you.

I think Hooves false analogy has now been comprehensively debunked, so I suggest we now ignore further attempts to derail this and turn it into a thread on abortion.

I also second (third) suggestions upthread that MNHQ should have a think about whether they're happy for a vulerable 16 year old to be posting on this forum.

OP, you need objective, balanced support in real life (not a team of cheerleaders and adults terrified into submission by false suicide stats) but I don't think an open forum like this one is right for you given where you are psychologically at the moment.

Thanks for coming back.

There was something not quite right about the previous thread, and it is good to know why.

I am coming back to say what has been said up thread. Testosterone is a feel good hormone. It is the reason young men like to take risks and enjoy lots of physical exertion, which reinforces the high.

It takes a while to adjust to this change, and for the brain to develop to catch up. Some are inclined to make reckless decisions. This is part of the reason why it is unwise to make life-changing decisions until the process is complete, in the mid twenties.

Oestrogen is also feel good, but it is cyclical and peaks midcycle. Progesterone which kicks in then is more calming. However, for a sizeable proportion of women, progesterone is depressive and some have a particularly bad reaction to it. So being a woman takes some getting used to and working round.

In our late teens we are adapting to these changes and our brains are still growing. It is hard to unpick what is our brains and what is the effects of hormones at times, and this comes as the body matures.

The abortion topic is de-railing the thread. So let’s move on.

It is unbelievable teachers at university promote this, it makes me long for my Feminism 101 days. Which university I wonder

Yes hearhooves but that's when they're already pregnant and a baby will inevitably be born if there is no intervention.

Ok, go back a step then. We allow 14 year olds to decide to have sex - it isn't legal but nothing is done to stop it and if that 14 year old goes to the Dr for contraception they will be given it, even though they might nit take it reliably this risking pregnancy. Clearly, according to you, they are not mature enough to make such a life changing decision as to risk a pregnancy so why aren't they sent to counseling to desist the urge to have underage sex rather than encouraged to do it by being given contraception, that they may or may not take?

And my point about pregnancy/abortion is that whilst yes a decision will have to be made why is there decision given to the teenager to make if, according to all of you, they are not mature enough to make such a decision? Surely, a best interests decision should be taken by a responsible adult, no?

So go start a thread on abortion elsewhere Hooves. Stop derailing this one. It's a rubbish analogy. People have explained why it's a rubbish analogy. Just give it a break, will you?

As a feminist I am committed to the idea that that trans men are men and trans women are women.

Why “as a feminist”? And why do you say you’re “committed to the idea”? Do you mean you don’t actually believe it to be true but feel you have to agree with it?

There is no tidy clearcut separation between sex and gender (though many Mnetters would argue there is).

There is sex, and there is gender. They are different and separate.

Some great points MbwaKidogo !

I said UNBIASED

I think Hooves false analogy has now been comprehensively debunked, so I suggest we now ignore further attempts to derail this and turn it into a thread on abortion.

It hasn't been debunked at all, you've all just sidestepped it because it doesn't fit your agenda.

It's not derailing to make an argument about whether a 14 or 16 year old is mature enough to make permanent life changing decisions about themselves and you are arguing that they aren't. I can't see the difference between deciding to have an abortion, to continue s pregnancy, to refuse cancer treatment or to transition. All are huge decisions, all are potentially life changing or life limiting. Why do you support some but not all?

Either a 16 year old is capable of making these decisions or they aren't. I'm interested in where you all see the difference.

Wow
I’m relieved it wasn’t the parent I was talking to. I thought something was really odd there, especially when I asked about testosterone.

Hooves of course it’s not ideal to make such a big decision so young, which is why people educate against teen pg but once it happens a decision has to be made.

I am interested in knowing what your mother thinks op since you now say it was you on the other thread.

I'm interested in where you all see the difference.

Hearthooves, you wouldn't understand.

Literally. We tried to explain it and you just wouldn't understand.

I'm interested in where you all see the difference.

Then start your own thread on it.

Hooves yes do start a different thread, I’m sure it’ll get a lot of debate.

I doubt there is anyone here who wouldn’t hope that whatever the op does is the right thing for them ultimately. No one wants them to be unhappy. But no one who feels strongly about this wants to sit by and say or do nothing when it may lead to huge regret and sadness.

Let’s hope it doesn’t. Genuinely hope we are wrong.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras oh for goodness sake. Ok to use your comparison would mean that as a trans woman where my breasts are surgically removed, I can rationalise the decision as I can make another set of breasts later in life if I choose to. And I could also have those removed and make more if I wanted. Yes my original breasts are gone, but I can make more.

Therefore my maturity level for decision making has a get out clause and thus greatly reduced.

There is no tidy clearcut separation between sex and gender (though many Mnetters would argue there is).

They are different things, but related. Sex is biological - male or female. Gender is the set of stereotypes and cultural expectations imposed on us because of our sex.

I don’t see it as ‘on MN’ and ‘not on MN’ when it comes to adults concerned about teenagers taking irreversible steps to change themselves. I know many people who are deeply worried about it, including medical professionals, social workers, psychologists etc. Socially they will talk about it. Professionally many of them feel shut down because expressing many of these thoughts is no longer permitted in their workplaces without accusations of transphobia. I think it may be that MN is one of the few places people can talk about their worries. Everyone who thinks they work in an environment where all their colleagues are singing from the same hymn sheet may not be right.

I have a teenager, and was one, and I know that just saying how much we all change as we grow doesn’t have any effect at all. It’s such a powerful age of feelings and worry and uncertainty. But if one of my children told me they felt like this, I would beg them to wait as long as possible before making any permanent change.

For goodness sake, changing a body permanently via surgery and medication so that it can never be recovered or able to bear or feed a child in the future is in no way comparable with terminating an unwanted pregnancy, when that body will have a very good chance of being able to bear and carry children in the future. Most women and girls are relieved by this solution and move forward easily enough. I really cannot comprehend how anyone could believe that it is in any way analogous.

Are you aware the brain is not fully developed until 25? Do you not think it would be foolish to make decisions that'll scar you for life with an immature brain?
I used to feel I should've been a boy, it just seemed so much easier than being a girl. I'd be so much better if I could do this and that, I'd be better and happier if I was a boy. I think my mental health was something I struggled with for a young age and was I guess more vulnerable to gender dysphoria. For me this were thoughts from about 8-13/14. I'm so thankful I'm not a child today. I grew out of it and Im a very happy woman! My heart goes out to you, it does.

You're 16, you've made up your mind, you're too stubborn to admit anything else. Sometimes it just feels nice to be part of something. I was 16 once. I suspect you won't listen, but my advice is wait until your brain is fully developed.

I don't need to start a thread on abortion because it isn't about abortion. It's about whether a 14,15 or 16 year old (or up to 25 year old as many of you are saying) is mature enough to make a life changing decision. If that isn't relevant to this thread then why are you all piling into the op with your patronising " you're only a child, you don't know your own mind, you can't possibly you're too young, adults around you should be stopping you"?

Please explain to me why you support the rights for children to make life changing decisions about other medical procedures but not this? Why are you not arguing that 14, 15, 16 year olds aren't mature enough to make decisions about their own bodies and so therefore a responsible adult should be consenting to all medical procedures if you honestly believe that 16 year olds can't make decisions for themselves? And that is very relevant to this thread because you've all made it relevant.

Why “as a feminist”? And why do you say you’re “committed to the idea”? Do you mean you don’t actually believe it to be true but feel you have to agree with it?

No, by 'committed' I mean I absolutely believe it to be true that trans rights are women's rights, and that that belief is at the core of who I am as a feminist. Women are plural and diverse and there is no single overarching definition of what it means to be a woman

[Sex and gender] are different things, but related. Sex is biological - male or female. Gender is the set of stereotypes and cultural expectations imposed on us because of our sex.

I know that's the prevalent MN view of sex and gender, but it's a view that has been called in question by many gender theorists, and it's not a view I agree with. In some ways, sex is a construct as much as gender is, and gender is just as essential a part of our identity as biological sex is.

This is why I don't understand why gd is no longer seen as a mental health problem. It is. Being transgender means you see your body differently to what it is.

^this. It's no different to body dysmorphia, it is body dysmorphia, it is a mental health issue.

A cautionary tale

I'm not transgender but I did used to suffer from body dysmorphia and the accompanying depression. (Note the 'used to', body dysmorphia is not usually lifelong, it's temporary).What I saw in the mirror is not what other people saw. I ended up having major cosmetic surgery in the midst of a mental health breakdown. I regretted it almost as soon as I woke from the anaesthetic when the realisation of what I'd done hit me. That was 15 years ago, it took me 5 years to be able to look at myself naked in the mirror and another 5 to finally accept my scars. Forgiving myself for mutilating my perfectly healthy body took a very long time. As you get older you come to realise having a healthy functioning body is all that matters. My decision resulted in me being unable to form intimate relationships for a very long time. The surgeon who operated on me has since been struck off. I can't believe it's legal to perform such major elective surgery on children in the UK and I would urge you to wait a few years OP.

And there's another point to consider: the world changes. And it doesn't always change in the way you expected as a youth

Also this^. Society has changed beyond my wildest nightmares dreams in the last 20 years. I could never have envisioned conformity returning and individualism becoming a thing of the past.