Re: DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy.

[crazyhat]

In reference to the suspended thread titled "DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy." I am the 16 year old, writing it from my mother's point of view, everything I said is true, and my mother and I stand by what I said. See, a few weeks ago she told me that when I first started transitioning, she came to mumsnet for help, and was met by people telling her to not endorse it, and other things that (with hindsight) are blatently transphobic. You are all free to your own opinions, I can't stop that. But I genuinely can't describe the feeling I have towards my body, it's such an extreme disconnect, and I know that transitioning is genuinely the only solution. I am very greatful that my parents support me, unlike many parents, evidently are on here. I'm sorry to anyone who feels decieved, but I was genuinely just doing it to have a sense of understanding of what my parents generation think, and to be brutally honest, it was borderline concerning. I feel sorry for people who's have to hear "advice" from some of you. However I, and my situation, is very much real.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3732775-DS-is-transgender-ftm-16-and-happy

crazyhat you seem to have been badly let down by all the adults around you. Doctors and therapists should never have encouraged you to believe that your mental distress can be cured by major irreversible changes to your body.

None of us know what it is like to be a member of the opposite sex, so there is no way we can 'feel male' if we are female. We can feel that we would prefer to be a member of the opposite sex, but since changing sex is impossible, a reasonable response to that would be to examine why we feel that way.

What do you think you would be able to do as a man, or as a transman, that you can't do as a woman? How would your life be different as a transman, and would it be possible to live that way as a woman?

@hearhoovesthonkzebras While I understand you point, an abortion is most commonly about what a woman can manage today, now, the time she finds herself with a fertilised egg inside her. It isn’t about ending any potential of being a biological parent for the rest of her life - not if it’s done properly in a legal, sterile environment by trained doctors. as it can be now thanks goodness.

We don't hate you, we worry for you

I wish the groups branding adults who worry "transphobic" could understand this.

I would imagine that a decision to have an abortion is a huge one. One that is irreversible and potential could affect someone for life, yet we let 16 year olds, even under 16 year olds make it.

You're not comparing like with like.

Abortion decision is between 1) having a baby and 2) having an abortion. You can only have an abortion if you're already pregnant.

Sterilisation decision is between 1) being sterilised and 2) not being sterilised/being sterilised at a later date.

It's disingenuous to compare a time-sensitive necessary decision to something that could be carried out at a later date with no real change in the outcome.

Furthermore, although a small proportion of women experience issues after abortion, having a baby is far more likely to 'affect someone for life'.

@GertiMJN - I get that- but OP feels they are male, and homosexual- although I now realise that asking that question to child is really I appropriate and don't expect them to answer. As a general though, to 'feel' male, to want to 'be' male, and be seen as male and homosexual, and yet keep your vagina as a vagina isn't female. seems wrong and I can't get past that. I can understand full surgery much more than the increasing trend to focus solely on breasts- either having or not having them and taking steroids seems the de rigueur, and leaving penises and vaginas intact the standard behaviour and action of anyone purporting to want to change.

Indeed we do but having as termination is not the permanent decision that sterilisation is.

How can it not be permanent? You can't reverse it can you? You can't bring that pregnancy back if you later realise that it was a mistake? Yet we allow, in some cases positively encourage young women to make that choice. We accept that they know their own mind and are mature enough to make such a big decision.

What do you think you would be able to do as a man, or as a transman, that you can't do as a woman?

I asked that question several times on the previous thread but never got an answer.

But not can you reverse a baby born when you are 16, and that can have a devastating effect on your life.

Nor

I didn't see the former thread, but will say this.

Teenagers tend to think they understand how the world works, but, in truth, most teens have only ever lived within a very small bubble that consists of school, home and safe slices of the world, curated by parents, where pretty much everyone they meet is of a similar age and roughly similar values.

Once you enter the adult world, usually when you start working in a job, you realise that the world is nothing like you thought it was. It is vast, practically everyone is older than you, and no one gives you any allowances for youth or inexperience, nor will anyone tell you how to operate in the adult world. You will just be expected to do it.

Adult life is difficult, and most people make mistakes in their twenties and thirties. Indeed, most women I know believe they didn't actually become themselves until they entered their 40s.

With all this in mind, part of the reason I would urge caution is because teenagers really have no idea whom they will become in the future. I know women who wanted to be doctors that ended up dancers, writers that ended up social workers, musicians that ended up writing games. There are so many communities in this world, and you want to retain your ability to access as many as possible.

Another reason is that if you transition, you will start your adult life as a medicated individual with developing physical health problems and the possible need for medical interventions throughout your life. Generally, they advise a hysterectomy after five years on testosterone. Are you willing to put yourself into early menopause so young? Freezing eggs isn't the solution posited either. I looked into it a couple of years ago when I had fertility issues and the success rate is not very heartening.

And there's another point to consider: the world changes. And it doesn't always change in the way you expected as a youth. I'm in my early 40s now, and was a teen and young adult at a time when the prevailing youth cultures were very libertarian and individualistic.

I've watched as British society and culture has become more and more conformist, in ways I would have thought impossible, over the last twenty years. I've experienced the ground shifting under my feet economically and politically. Shit changes; decisions you make in this climate may not make sense in another.

I say this because there is a danger that, in twenty years, the transgender generation will be as much a historical oddity as the grunge generation. The transgender idols of today will, over time, disappear, and when you read a "where are they now?" piece when you are in your early forties, you will realise a lot of them were frauds anyway.

This is why so many mumsnetters urge caution. We've seen it happen before. We've experienced something similar ourselves and seen it happen to others.

Be smart. If you have a strong sense of a transgender state, manage it in a way that avoids surgery and drugs. Don't do anything you can't easily undo.

hearhoovesthinkzebras, don't you understand that people who have abortions would otherwise have babies?

Abortion is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Furthermore, although a small proportion of women experience issues after abortion, having a baby is far more likely to 'affect someone for life'.

I think for many they might well regret having an abortion but, flip it then. As you say having a baby would have a bigger impact - young girls are allowed to decide to continue with a pregnancy. At the ages of 13, 14, 15 it would be their choice to decide to continue with a pregnancy. We allow them to make such a big decision not only about their life but about the life of another - their child.

We would let a 16 year old (sometimes younger if declared competent) to refuse treatment for cancer, even if that meant they will die - nothing is more permanent than that, yet they are deemed mature enough, by law, to make that decision.

@packingsoapandwater such a wise post.

I fully support anyone in transitioning and living their life as happy as they possibly can.
I hope that in another 16 years you're as happy then as you are now OP.

Just steer well clear of the TRAs and their aggressive ideology. Be a transexual, live your life, but don't try to force your way onto everyone.

This is an awful thread. I did report it, on the basis it's a TAAT if nothing else. However if the OP is indeed 16 years old (hard to believe given the original thread has now been outed as a lie) but we should consider that lots of people piling on someone so young who clearly has mental health problems isn't helpful.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
That’s a bogus analogy. A pregnant teen has to decide whether or not she wants to go through with a physical pregnancy and the ensuing repercussions. Of course she cannot make a totally informed choice in the same way a childless 40 year old woman cannot. But she will be given unbiased support and counselling, unlike trans teens.

Moreover, for most young women, but not all, a pregnant teen will have to opportunity again to have a child when they feel ready. And if they decide to keep the child, they will be able to choose again to have another. And the child will mature and reach young adulthood at 18. With op, this is a decision for the rest of their life at an age, where the brain is unable to make those decisions.

Abortion is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Why? It's relevant to the question as to whether a 16 year old is mature enough to make decisions about their own body. Decisions that could have far reaching consequences on them. Either they are or they aren't. You are all arguing that they aren't. That they cannot possibly know their own minds until they are 25. So how can they make other, potentially life changing decisions before that then?

Well you can’t wait until 25 once the embryo is there can you? So you have to make a decision.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras once a child is pregnant, something permanent has to happen - either she has an abortion or endures pregnancy and childbirth, then has to decide whether to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. Something irreversible and permanent is inevitable

That is NOT the case in OP’s case. They could just use a male name and dress in masculine clothing - no need for irreversible hormones and surgery.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras you comparisons still aren't relevant, are they.

Find a comparison that recognises a surgical procedure as a solution to a psychological illness.

We allow them to make such a big decision

Yes hearhooves but that's when they're already pregnant and a baby will inevitably be born if there is no intervention. Once the baby is conceived there is a ticking clock so a decision has to be made one way or another sharpish.

After conception, the pregnant teen and their family are forced to make a decision - that's completely different from whether to sterilise a young teenager or wait until they're a little bit older.

Hi OP, the predominant view on Mumsnet about trans people isn't the same as the view I've encountered outside MN.

I teach at a university and my colleagues and I are very supportive of trans students, colleagues and staff. As a feminist I am committed to the idea that that trans men are men and trans women are women. There is no tidy clearcut separation between sex and gender (though many Mnetters would argue there is).

If your choice makes you happy, it's not harming anyone else, so go for it!

It might be good for your mental health to get off MN though, because the anti-trans voices are relentless and you've very unlikely to change most posters' minds.

Good luck to you on your journey

But she will be given unbiased support and counselling, unlike trans teens.

The op says he had had 2 lots of counseling and it's interesting how much you are minimising the effects of a termination on someone who might regret it later if they didn't know their own mind (as you are claiming) or on having a child at age 14 that they are then responsible for. The effects that has on their education, on the life chances. Yet you are dismissing that as "well they can have another child".

It's very interesting to read the mental gymnastics based on whether you agree with something or not. So you agree with abortion and so you'll argue that a 14 year old having had a couple of sessions of counselling is, of course, mature enough to make a permanent decision about the pregnancy but a 16 year old having had a lot of counselling with 2 counsellors cannot make a decision to trans, because you don't agree with it.

I was repelled at the thought of pregnancy right up to when I was 29 and my biological clock started ringing. Children just don't have the maturity to make decisions about their future reproduction and really grasp the enormity of either having a baby or not being able to have one.

I hope you are ok OP. I know you're going to get dissenting voices on this thread unlike in social bubbles but I know many people, certainly myself just see transitioning for children as something actually akin to abuse by the adults around you. Puberty isn't just growing boobs or a beard. Adolescence is necessarily a rollercoaster emotionally and physically because your brain is maturing, and transitioning with strong hormones is denying you this process. It's not that transpeople are terribly mistaken it's harmful to prevent children going through a natural adolescence however grim it feels. I wish more support was available to teens like you to just help you through this time without harming your body or development.