Re: DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy.

[crazyhat]

In reference to the suspended thread titled "DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy." I am the 16 year old, writing it from my mother's point of view, everything I said is true, and my mother and I stand by what I said. See, a few weeks ago she told me that when I first started transitioning, she came to mumsnet for help, and was met by people telling her to not endorse it, and other things that (with hindsight) are blatently transphobic. You are all free to your own opinions, I can't stop that. But I genuinely can't describe the feeling I have towards my body, it's such an extreme disconnect, and I know that transitioning is genuinely the only solution. I am very greatful that my parents support me, unlike many parents, evidently are on here. I'm sorry to anyone who feels decieved, but I was genuinely just doing it to have a sense of understanding of what my parents generation think, and to be brutally honest, it was borderline concerning. I feel sorry for people who's have to hear "advice" from some of you. However I, and my situation, is very much real.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3732775-DS-is-transgender-ftm-16-and-happy

hooves
Permanent ones that will affect the rest of their lives and that we can prevent.
So: sterilisation, plastic surgery.
We cannot prevent teenagers from having sex under age though we try hard.
In fact becoming a parent under 25 has got a good history of success, as does getting an education. So we don't actively prevent those though they aren't reversible.
Tattoos are fortunately mainly removable.
Marriage is reversible too.

This is a thoughtful article (even if it does use the offensive "cis" terminology).

nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/andrew-sullivan-hard-questions-gender-transitions-for-young.html

OP, if you did want to detransition, presumably you could benefit from the same interventions that transwomen have to change their physique and speak at a higher pitch?

I thought the whole point was that the hormonal steps young teens take (before they're old enough for the survey) were completely reversible?

Whatever, OP.

I thought your final post was upthread?

Hi OP. This website is a hellscape for transphobia and whilst I think you are so brave for coming here, you are just setting yourself up for abuse

And yet there has been none. Never is. Just because you say it doesn't make it real. Much like transitioning

Permanent ones that will affect the rest of their lives and that we can prevent.

So pregnancy then? That's permanent. And really under 25 parenthood has good outcomes? What about under 20 year old parents? Under 16 year old parents? They all get good education's and go on to have good careers do they? How many wind up as single parents on benefits? Is that a good outcome?

How about the decision to join the armed forces? How can they fully understand what they are risking at 18? Soldiers coming back with limbs missing, catastrophic injuries or dead.

To a lesser extent encouraging 18 year olds to go to university and I cur £50,000 worth of debt - that's permanent and certainly will affect the next 30 years of their life.

Accepting or refusing treatment for cancer or organ transplant - permanent and life changing if not life threatening. Presumably you would like that prevented in the under 25s too then?

We cannot prevent teenagers from having sex under age though we try hard.

Do we? How so? Everything that I've seen has been about encouraging the use of contraception rather than not having sex.

How many wind up as single parents on benefits? Is that a good outcome?

you genuinely think people shouldn't be allowed to make big life decisions until they're 25? No? Oh just trans people, I see. Many people have to make life decisions before 25, I am fully aware of the consequences, but I simply can't wait till 25 for this

What “big life decisions” can trans people not make that non trans people can make that has a catastrophic effect on health?

You are attempting to twist this into a Kevin the teenager strop “you won’t let me do anything” wail wail.

FWIW I don’t believe anyone under that age should be allowed to be sterilised unless it’s for a medical reason (cancer etc).
As for voluntarily removing sexual function.. of course there should be an age limit on this regardless of whether you believe in gendered essences or not. I’m against genital mutilation for anyone.

I’m not going to compare getting a mortgage or going to university or not bothering to study for A levels with sterilisation or cosmetic intervention which increases cancer risk and leads to oesteoporosis because I’m not a disingenuous twat. For the avoidance of doubt I think trans people should be allowed education and mortgages.

I could live with the age of consent for body modification being raised but I’m not that arsed if people get badly drawn tattoos at 18 because it’s not that damaging. Taking testosterone at and age you can’t get a tattoo or a Prince Albert is fucked up.

We have age limits on lots of things TO PROTECT PEOPLE. It’s not because we are big meanies.

Thailand, who have some considerable experience in this, have raised the age of surgical transition to 25. Why do you think that might be?

Why can’t you wait? What is so special about you that your brain has matured a full decade before everyone else’s?

@crazyhat that is not often enough, or long enough. Seek regular and long term support. The de-transitioning stories that are popping up already break my heart. There will be more coming up in and in larger volumes, or suicides of those who felt unable.

Have a little think, question what it means to be a man or a woman. Read about the differences of male and female anatomy. Question if you really feel a robotic penis will make you a man. Do mind maps. Read de-transitioning stories. Try some self-directed therapy without any outside interference or influence. Try some therapy with the intention of discussing what it means to be a man or woman, there is so much active support now. Perhaps you might decide these ideas are outdated. Do you know what you want to do when you grow up? Is it a traditionally man or woman's job. Just explore these ideas and seek regular support, state you are struggling with gender identity and you want to explore what it means to be a man or woman.
You had therapy after coming out? As that as a lesbian? Are you prepared for lesbian and bisexual women not to be attracted to you as they are not Pansexual? Have you ever felt upset about how being lesbian is historically less acceptable? It is okay to say you got swept up in the movement, we do not judge you. It is a strength. Just explore a bit more, best wishes.

Do you know what you want to do when you grow up? Is it a traditionally man or woman's job.

Firstly, could you be any more patronising? When you grow up? FFS.

Secondly, what is a traditionally man's or woman's job?

We have age limits on lots of things TO PROTECT PEOPLE.

Until they are 18 and for medical consent it's 16, not 25 as you are advocating.

Do you think a 16 year old should be allowed to refuse life saving treatment? Because they can as it stands now. Presumably you are against that?

Is that patronising? Sorry are 16 year olds adults now? Swore that was 18 in the UK, it's 21/22 in some!

Well it depends how far back you want to go, not that long ago a woman's job was to be a housewife and mother. I'm sure you already know this though...

You had therapy after coming out? As that as a lesbian? Are you prepared for lesbian and bisexual women not to be attracted to you as they are not Pansexual? Have you ever felt upset about how being lesbian is historically less acceptable?

The op isn't a lesbian. They are attracted to men, where did you get they are a lesbian from?

JustAnotherMammi

They don't have to be an adult for you t refrain from asking a teen what they want to be when they grow up!!!! I wouldn't ask an 11 year old that question let alone a 16 year old.

Because they said coming out, I asked, didn't assume, you can't even ask for clarity these days. But replace whichever is relevant, the question is still valid.

I just love often these arguments are nit-picking rather than actual arguments. Consider that too OP.

Thailand, who have some considerable experience in this, have raised the age of surgical transition to 25.

I hadn't heard this. Thank goodness for some sense coming from at least one country.

Medical treatments/interventions have a risk/benefit balance that needs to be looked at so informed choices can be made. The pure stupidity is saying if you don’t think teenage should have cosmetic orchidectomy or mastectomy or hormone “therapy” for cosmetic reasons then you don’t think kids should be allowed cancer treatment is staggering. Unfortunately there are teens who are put in the position where they decide to go from active treatment to palliative care, the same way that adults have to. Sometimes that choice is removed by the medical team because there is no active treatment left. This is because they are ill, with a really shitty, horrible disease. It’s not because they have a feeling that they should have a deeper voice. The risk/benefit is so heavy on the risk that the benefit can’t even be seen under it.

What next? You gave your kid calpol so don’t you dare stop them cutting their cock off, hypocrite.

Hearhooves I would be surprised if it's any easier for a ftm straight person to find gay men to have sex with than lesbian women. I think it would be harder actually. Not saying there wouldn't be the right person out there for them, but as a general sexual partner - more difficult.

JustAnotherMammi

This is what you said

You had therapy after coming out? As that as a lesbian? Are you prepared for lesbian and bisexual women not to be attracted to you as they are not Pansexual? Have you ever felt upset about how being lesbian is historically less acceptable?

If you aren't assuming op is a lesbian why ask
Are you prepared for lesbian and bisexual women not to be attracted to you as they are not Pansexual? Have you ever felt upset about how being lesbian is historically less acceptable?

If you don't think op is a lesbian why would they be bothered about lesbians being attracted to them or particularly upset about how being a lesbian is historically less acceptable?

You clearly assumed that op is a lesbian.

Being able to grow a beard is not life saving. It’s narcissistic and pathetic. Not liking puberty is not an illness or a problem to be fixed.

It's not about being life saving. It's about deciding that young people have the autonomy, or not, to make life changing decisions for themselves. You are being incredibly patronising to reduce gender dysphoria to "not liking puberty".

Either we accept that 16 year olds and above have the autonomy to.make decisions or we don't.

And I am sorry for the loss of your niece

Like every teen I've ever known, these young people are struggling with 'who they are' and how they want to present to the world. What they look like, what views they have etc. etc. Plus many have additional mental health problems and / or are neurodiverse.

The thing about this is that there is so much heartbreak caused by these struggles in your teenage years, but once you get out into the adult world, no one gives a shit "who you are" or "what you do or think".

When I was in my teens, the subculture I was in was that intelligent, artistic young people had to perform a kind of angst-ridden and neurotic persona. One had to be "tortured" by life and existence. And there were idols for this neo-regency type of sensibility: Cobain was probably the most well-known, and Elizabeth Wurtzel was the scribe.

But once we all got out into the real world, it came as a shock to realise no one gave a damn how "tortured" or "artistic" or "brilliant" we were because the adult world wants people who turn up on time, do good work, and don't cause hassle or drama - - and most of the time, they didn't care about your ideas either.

It took quite a few of my friends over a decade to adjust to reality, and some never did. Now I look back and realise we were lied to by certain elements of culture throughout our teens and twenties about what the world was really like, and it has meant that we've wasted a lot of our potential.

So I'm afraid I see a lot of rapid onset amongst intelligent girls to be a very similar phenomenon. And I worry that it will, at the very best, waste years of their lives and, at the very worst, result in a medical situation that screws up their lives.

It's like we've learnt nothing.

The pure stupidity is saying if you don’t think teenage should have cosmetic orchidectomy or mastectomy or hormone “therapy” for cosmetic reasons then you don’t think kids should be allowed cancer treatment is staggering.

And I didn't say that. I said if you do t think a 16 year is capable of consenting to this then presumably they aren't able to consent to other serious medical procedures either. That's not saying they should be allowed cancer treatment, that's saying the young person isn't mature enough to consent or decline such treatment (if we follow your argument) and so it should therefore be up to the parent to make those decisions presumably?