I would appreciate some advice for a 7yo who identifies as F2m.

[Ginburee]

My first ever thread despite having lurked for years.
My 7yo daughter (and yes we use pronouns ATM) has lived as a boy since she was 3/4. Wears nothing but clothes bought in the male section and plays with stereotypical boys toys.
We have been totally child led and supportive and now we are heading to junior school am on the edge- do I see the GP and get a referral or carry on as we are?
She desperately wants to be a boy but had never specifically said she is one but we had an almighty tantrum on holiday as she didn't want to wear the rash vest that went with her shorts and just wanted trunks.
I am really open to her seeing other people but have been having an email conversation with GP and they have no idea what to do with a trans child so will refer on.
I am heading into unknown territory, hubby is supportive to a point but thinks if we have a referral they will 'push more trans issues' and he feels we should carry on as we are.
My child easily passes for a boy and has an adaptable name that she has been using for the last few years.
I could really do with (a massive gin and a big hug) and some advice from people who have been there.

Also, loads of little girls don't want boobs, it has always been like that. Boobs are weird and wobbly, change is scary. It does not mean they need therapy of any kind.

Maybe DH and I have issues as both of us don't approve of small girls wearing little clothing.

Yes, it definitely sounds like you have issues.
You need to have a close look at your own views on boys/girls because the message you are sending with clothes is that girls can't do the same as boys. It is likely she is saying she wants to be a boy because she thinks boys can do things girls can't.

She's spot on with not wanting the 'for girls' book and that there should be a prince trust.

Read though your own posts OP because you do seem to have very fixed ideas on boys/girls things and it's likely she is just picking up on this and rebelling against the idea. She probably won't be able to articulate herself to say this so it's coming accross as 'I want to be a boy' rather than 'I'm against all this stereotypical nonsense and I want to be treated equally to boys'.

I've commented about this before, but growing up my cousin was exactly like OP and some PP have described their DDs. She was sure she would mature into a boy and grow a 'willy', and was seriously distressed about being forced to do / wear anything 'girly' when necessary (e.g. When being a bridesmaid for her aunt). Parents just always supported her to do whatever she wanted.

She's gay, not trans, and just needed to get to an age where she understood her own feelings. She's also pursued a very 'male' career (the only woman I know doing it) and has traditionally 'male' hobbies but definitely no interest in becoming a boy anymore.

I think some of the advice from PP is sound - just let her be, support her and see who she grows up to be.

A lot of you have "tomboy" girls. They are most likley not transgender, as you have all identified. What the OP is experiencing, what my family experienced is far beyond what would be consider tom boy behaviour. You are comparing apples to oranges, just because your child is a regular tom boy doesn't mean OP's is. Just because tomboys exist as a recognised concept doesn't mean trans children do not.

Unless you have experienced living with a trans identifying child your experiences really don't hold much value in this situation. The OP asked for people who had experience, not people who have girls who like to wear jeans. I also liked to wear jeans and have short hair as a child, but I didn't want to kill myself because of it.

but I didn't want to kill myself because of it

WTF . This is the second poster who has brought up the OPs DD trying to to kill herself.

Why? Just why?

The OPs daughter is 7. She probably does not even know what suicide is. The OP has not said anything to that suggests her child is "far beyond normal tomboy behaviour".

Seriously, all these folk who rush to assume a child is trans because they don't comply with gender norms, and don't want to comp!y with gender norms can just fuck off. We are going to look back on this period in history and be horrified at what we have done.

The OP hasn't said anywhere that her child wants to kill herself. that would have received very different replies.

But ledbury NOTHING OP has written has suggested anything other than a 'standard tomboy', obviously very bright as she is acutely aware of gender conformity and is rebelling against it (quite rightly!). OP hasn't mentioned any particularly disturbing behaviour at all - other than the fact that breasts can be removed and I'd be concerned as to where that came from. OP has also mentioned some very ingrained gender stereo-typing that goes on in the household.

So in fact the very strong likelihood IS that this is a tomboy kid.

apologies if it wasn't clear from my post, i Was referring to my experience with my own child, who identifies as a male. I'm just saying i think people are bright enough to know if their child is a tom boy or if something more extreme is at hand. We all know what a tom boy is, i find it hard to believe someone would actually mistake tom boy like behaviour as a trans issue.

I'm just saying i think people are bright enough to know if their child is a tom boy or if something more extreme is at hand.

Sadly I do not think this is true any longer.

Agree titchy

titchy i think that's just a judgement people make. I wouldn't have gone through everything I have with my DS if it was just tom boy behaviour. The experience has been nothing short of horrific at times. I know it suits people to flippantly say oh everyone thinks their tom boy is trans, but some of them actually are trans. I can't think of any parent who would embark on a transition if they didn't have too, I just really don't.

I think that there would have been a lot more confusion about tomboys in the past if people had been saying to them 'are you sure you're not actually a boy in the wrong body?' As that wasn't a widely publicised thing at the time (see e.g. Caitlyn Jenner), that idea wasn't put in their, or their parents' head.
The OP hasn't offered anything distressing, but that her DD likes Horrid Henry, boys' clothes, wants to be a boy and refused to wear a particular top.

OP

Have you watched the BBC tv series no more boys and girls? It's only 1 episode in so you could catch up on IPlayer.

It shows how children have been effected by society so very early on. It's an interesting watch.

I'm not going to tell you your dd isn't trans.
But by arming yourself with the knowledge of how your dd perceives the world around her, you could potentially be able to understand her more and help her, with her wants and needs.

I'm not going to be much help about the gender fluidity discussion as I have a DS and DD who currently are happy being these however we were very concious for DD and DS to both have a balanced upbringing as far as gender was concerned. So really just followed their leads as you've done.

Can you encourage extra curricular stuff thats not gender specific. Eg Cubs and Scouts as all are treated the same. Not a boys and girls team as in some sports teams.

Just thinking about the Cubs specifically I've worked with over the years there has certainly been more than one girl who really wanted to be a boy and Scouting is a great non judgemental enviromment where that can happen.

OP I am so confused
You have described me at that age and now! I never wear skirts or heels.

This is not living as a male. What about her is male?

I needed a bra at 9. Id still love to have no breasts but I'm scared of surgery. This doesn't make me trans or a man.

I read a parenting guide which said let your children have what they want in fantasy if not reality. Children are all about make believe and imagination.

To this extent allowing her to pretend she's a boy like George in the famous five is fine. Most people as they grow up will come to accept reality. I cried when I got boobs because I wanted to be a boy but i also thought - the game is up and I'm going to have to get on with it.

I had wanted a sex change operation from watching a TV program about it when I was about 9 but when I saw they made the penis from a stomach muscle and skim graft I realised it wasnt real - it was pretend and and that sex change wasn't really possible.

Where I think parents go wrong is to assume their kid is trans and going to persist - to take their fantasy as reality. Maybe their are a tiny number of people with a genetic /hormonal condition which means their brain is telling them they should be the opposite sex but I think it's probably as rare as hens teeth. For the vast majority of kids they are responding the gender stereotypes and fantasising about what might have been.

My friend said he suffered a year of near breakdown at 11 when he realised that fairies and elves and sprites didn't exist. He was an imaginative child who loved all these stories. No one would suggest that due to his distress everyone should affirm his beliefs and uphold the illusion.

Part of growing up is realising the difference between fantasy and reality even and that often is painful - but necessary. The trans phenomenon is about insisting that everyone else that your fantasy is real and therefore I think largely unhealthy.

If adults want to cross dress or modify their bodies I support that right and everyone should be well treated but I do think it would be healthier doe everyone to admit the the reality that sex change is not possible - at best someone can pass but most people don't Nowt wrong with playing dress up or having cosmetic surgery if it makes someone feel better- but nothing can change the reality and to pretend it to support magical thinking.

Ginburee, it must be very difficult for you. I think it would be useful to try and unpick what you mean by living as a boy. I have had to do a lot of work in working this out and how these stereotypes have impacted my own children. I would also recommend watching No Boys or Girls www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz. I think the second episode is tomorrow.

I'm sorry OP I didn't mean to be harsh or flippant, I stand by my opinion but I don't mean to upset you, knowing how to guide our children is a difficult task!

I don't think OP came across as homophobic. Not being sure about a link between trans identifying kids and gay adults is healthy scepticism. It's honestly good not to go into this blindly believing everything you read online. The gender/trans debate right now seems to be at an awful peak reminiscent of the way the vaccine 'debate' was handled 10-15 years ago.

Nobody from the trans activist side is willing to address the concerns of 'what about this medication, this surgery, is it safe? Will it help?' As the overriding voice if you like is quite aggressive insistence that medication and possible surgery are the only solutions and a perfectly harmless one. That's silly because no medication is harmless, even calpol isn't harmless. We balance the risks of a medical or surgical approach against the probable outcome of letting the illness continue.

Conversely the gender critical viewpoint (and I will be honest and say that it's the side I fall on, because I think we have to be open here) doesn't seem to address the question:what if this child really is trans, what does that mean? All the focus is on proving that they must not be. It's difficult. You would think that the preferred solution if possible would be for the child to become comfortable with their natal sex, though of course this need not involve embracing the stereotypical gender roles associated with that sex. In fact I strongly believe that for many trans identifying kids, the key is to help them see the myriad ways of being female, or male, that don't rely on nonsense stereotypes in the first place. Then, if this is not possible, other options should be explored but I'm uncomfortable with these things being seemingly the first resort and/or seen as inevitable. Transition isn't particularly fun or glamorous, it's hard work, painful, potentially expensive, carries risk and it might not even solve the problem. For some people, though, it does seem to. I just wish it were easier to access a balanced point of view. Until that point, it's vital to keep reading EVERYTHING critically.

In the past, feminine boys and masculine girls (ie gender non conforming) were often assumed to be gay, or rather, assumed they would grow up to be gay, and when families tried to change them, it was from a fear of homosexuality. Now, the default seems to be "trans" and they still try to change them, this time their physical bodies. We dont as a species seem to like non conformity.

I am not getting the Prince's Trust thing. I thought Prince's were boys?

Princess trust.

It's the charity which takes hair donations to make them into wigs for kids/girls with cancer.

You say your SIL bought her an adventure book "for girls"

This is half the problem, I know it's hard to manage when this crap exists but with all my friends' kids, they were told immediately they could understand that books were books and toys are toys. I have friend who is a single parent and I spend a lot of time with her daughter (she works long hours) and I'll grant you it takes a lot of explaining, they don't understand why shops and schools are making that evidence and then adults rubbish it it....but we got there in the end.

She was probably the opposite of your daughter, scared to pick up something she thought was a boy book but like I say, we got there in the end.

Goodness, it is so sad what is happening to our children. I'd have been a ripe target for all this rubbish.

I was a seven year old in 1971, I imagine some others on this thread were also children in the 70s and 80s. I wore shorts, like my brother, simple T-shirts, like my brother. Brother and I read much the same books and had the same games. We both learned to knit at school. Brother had a bike I was very jealous of (a Chopper, sigh) but that was because he is the eldest, not because I was too girly for the Chopper. I did more sewing, he did more lego, but that was down to personality, rather than pressure from our parents. He had a doll as a small boy in the mid-late 1960s, because he asked for one. Of course I wore dresses, and had more dolls, but there wasn't the huge gulf there is now. Teenage girls in the late 70s and early 80s mainly had short hair- look at Princess Diana at 19 compared with the Duchess of Cambridge. Now I go into dd1's school and every single girl has long hair. They all have makeup on (we wore no makeup at school). There is this daft idea that certain books (books ffs!!) are "for boys" (Although Horrible Histories etc? Every girl we know has those). Thankfully we live in a rural area where both girls and boys do a lot of outdoor stuff , where girls play football without any comments, and where all the kids surf etc. But still the whole pink/blue thing is an issue in a way it never was. I am certain that this is due to the small gains that women made from the 70s on. We have been put back into our place, and our place is supposed to be Stepford wives with long swishy hair, frozen faces and fake breasts. No wonder so many girls see that and feel more like "boys".
OP the thing that worries me most from your posts is that you seem to want your child to be trans. As so many pps have said, let her know that she is a girl, and will grow into a woman, but that girls and boys do not have things that are separate and just for each sex. As a girl she can do anything a boy can.

*evidence = divide

I think auto correct wants to write my posts for me.