OMG HELP! Is my Uncle scamming my mum??? What to do! (Tenancy agreement)

[JenniferAnistonfan]

• in 2019 mom signed tenancy agreement with my uncle and his wife to help him rent home. She never lived there

• uncle has been subletting it and told my mum few years later he removed her. my mom later learns he never removed her. Meaning he faked her signature each time they renewed contract

• we learn this uncle has some serious dodgy, fraud and scamming history. Moving countries to hide and avoid paying people back, scamming abroad, articles on google about his scamming etc and his own father confirming he scammed fathers army buddies etc

• my mother asks to be removed, he seemed annoyed in phone and stalls for a year claiming landlord is not replying etc

• today I send him firm message saying I want my mom removed from contract. Ask him to give landlords contact details. Tell him replacement tenants will not be a problem as his adult daughter and mother in law moved in a year ago.

• he replies I’ll speak to him.

• calls me saying “give me your email. Landlords lawyer will be contacting you to remove you”

• something feels off so I say lawyer? Please give me his address, phone number and name, I want to contact his directly.

• uncle starts swearing and raising his voice at me, saying I’m being difficult and annoying and wasting peoples time?

• I am now worried given his history will give fake details or pay someone to pretend to be landlord.

• what should I do? I know there’s land registry but I’m worried it will show landlords old address?

• how do I find who landlord is and his real phone and address?

• also does this lawyer thing seem fake?

• and why is he so reluctant to remove my mom from tenancy agreement??? Could he be using her for some sort of scam?

Does it help you to mentally reframe this from "scamming" to "fraud"?

Because she may have had good intentions, but the landlord is entitled to decide who lives in his property, and your Mum had no intention of doing it. She's let it stretch on for 7 years and seems to conveniently forgotten or lost anything that might help her sort it out.

Now you're trying again, but you're panicking that details you haven't yet got might be incorrect... take the first step first. Get the details from the land registry. They're quite likely to be correct.

The cynic in me says your mum knew exactly what she was doing, and that's why she's waited until she signed the contract over six years ago, but it doesn't matter now.

The only worry is if there's damage the mother could be left with the bill? She could also be sued for the subletting maybe. Not sure about UK laws. Her not living there isn't an issue in itself so long as rent paid. The only issue with renting a house you are not living in is the landlord's insurance company needs to know if it's going to be vacant for more than usually 3 months.
The subletting is a whole other issue. Most rentals have a limit on number of occupants even for flatmates. Subletting is usually banned and of course in UK there is council tax issue.

Well she could go to the Police and report her Uncle and herself for fraud?

Yes, exactly this, Im wading through the replies and wonderig what the scam actually is, apart from the wrong people being on the tenancy and possibly the uncle making money out of subletting.

But the mum, how has she scammed anyone, whats the benefit to her? Whats the fraud benefit to her?

People have lied certainly, Im not sure thats a 'scam'.

If it's a well known landlord they'd know and be able to suggest how to get hold of them.
Her mum obviously didn't take note of the landlords details otherwise she wouldn't be posting what she has.

At this point in time, you have no idea if the landlord has moved or not. Your Uncle has told you/your Mum that the landlord moved abroad. You don't know if that's true at all!! Your Uncle doesn't want your Mum to remove herself from the tenancy, so therefore he's going to use any tactic he can, to stop her from doing so!! Your Uncle doesn't want your Mum to remove herself from the tenancy because he knows, that the landlord will need to arrange a new tenancy agreement for him and his wife only, and therefore they will need to pass the affordability check. He probably knows, they won't pass the affordability check, and will be forced to move.

You need to request a copy of the Land Registry, which costs around £7. That's your first port of call. It will give you a starting point. The address on the Land Registry, may be the landlords current address for all you know! Until you try, you won't know, and you'll be going around in circles, until you do!!

She doesn't know who the landlord is!! That's kind of the point of the thread...

Right to rent checks mean the landlord should have checked ID
https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-rent

my uncle is no longer with a letting agency. It’s just him and landlord

@JenniferAnistonfan why haven't you even tried the land registry form for £7?
Yes, it might be an out of date address, but it might also be an in date address.
It will have either a person's name or a company name out.
You can use either of those to check on companies house to see a current address for either.
If the person isn't on companies house (unlikely in London, its moremlikely a ltd company that owns the property even if it's just one person with a ltd company), then you have a person's name that you can try to track down, through other sources.

Next, it doesn't sound like your uncle is subletting- I believe that is when he moves out of the property. He is renting out a room (or two). Anyone can do this legally unless it's specifically barred in your tenancy. You can earn £7500 tax free from your house each year. This is all legal.

Finally- yes it's a stupid idea to sign this tenancy originally. But it's done. Are you ready for the repercussions if she gives it up now? Absolutely any landlord in the next couple of months who gets a whiff of a problem tenant will be evicting them, while they can, and if your mum gives up the joint tenancy, they don't have to issue a new one for just the couple. Would your mum cope if she is the reason they have to leave, and would she blame you? If so, give her the details, the facts, and let her decide herself.

No letting agent would give contact details for a landlord to anyone who asked. It's a breach of GDPR apart from anything.

I'm sure he did? What's that got to do with the issue at hand?

There is no signing of contracts on a rolling tenancy. Only when the rent goes up.

You can Google the address and most likely find the letting agent it was last advertised with. Uncle can easily wrack up debt in your mum's name as he can order credit under his address.

If you really wanted to you could get the landlords details easily. Why presume he has moved since he bought the house? Also does he never inspect it?

In this case, I think you should wash your hands of it and stay out of it.

If she actually asks for your help, you can refer back to both threads for a to do list.

The fraudulent thing that is on your mum's shoulders is in lying to the landlord. This matters because the landlord would not have rented to the people who did actually move in, based on affordability. It is damn lucky for your mum that they have actually been able to afford it, because she'd be on the hook for the full amount that they defaulted if they had done so. And also.. people who own a house have a right to know who is living in their damn property.

None of which should overshadow the fact that I think you need to step away and forget it. Your mum is playing stupid games and is lucky to have not won a stupid prize before now. She may or may not continue to be so lucky. Either way, she's not going to do anything to help herself, so you should step away and stop worrying about what you can't change.

Sorry OP but your family are a bunch of scammers and I'd stay well out of it if I were you. Your Mum knew she was lying when she claimed to rent a property she had no intention of living in. I suspect your uncle doesn't want to remove her from the tenancy agreement because that'll draw attention to him, and the landlord will discover he's subletting it to a whole load of randoms (and no doubt breaking a million H&S rules in the process).

If your mum signed a tenancy agreement and had no intention of living in the property, that sounds like fraud 😳 does your mum have a copy of the agreement that she signed? I'd say she needs to get legal advice and fast. If your uncle has forged her signature on subsequent agreements, that's also fraud.

Land Registry & Title Register Deeds in England, Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland

You just need the title register.

Also, you posted about this exact same thing in August 2024 under a different username - in that post you said your mother was intending to live there and last minute changed her mind. There's a lot that doesn't add up here?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/legal_matters/5149269-omg-did-my-uncle-scam-my-mother-is-this-fraud-tenancy-agreement-says-he-removed-her-6-years-ago-but-never-did?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&fbclid=IwY2xjawQU5RxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAwzNTA2ODU1MzE3MjgAAR4FC5kKmODqM0bKZBMex-5439_agv75I2-vIwOBZ0N2UoicunWag_h_PmtTfA_aem_h0VYUBd0NiRD6I52ogLing

Honestly this is a shit show. If your relationship with your mum is as bad as it seems just leave her to sort it out with your uncle.

I’d suggest that she might want to obtain the land registry copies for the property and then have a face to face meeting with the uncle to try to work this out. She could say she’s just had issues with her credit rating herself so next time the lease renews
she’ll be flagged as a credit risk if they leave her name on.

But honestly they both sound as bad as each other so I’d probably prioritise just staying out of the whole thing if I were you.

At this point your mum actually isn't in the wrong or committing fraud (currently)... She signed a tenancy agreement years ago. It has now lapsed. So she has no legal connection to the property. It would be hard to prove the previous wrong doing.

If her name is still on a tenancy agreement its because your uncle forged her signature. What she needs to do, is nothing and claim ignorance. If there is any fallout in the future, due to her name being still on the agreement, the response needs to be "Not possible I moved out 6 years ago. I guess that other guy didn't tell you and or has been committing fraud by forging my signature on new agreements... thats a you/him problem"

It would be easy for your mom to prove she doesn't live there currently and given the tenancy is 7 years old it would difficult for anyone to prove she didn't move in....

Do nothing, ignorance is bliss - it will blow up in your uncles face at some point.... If you want that to happen sooner... just track down the owner and mention the illegal sublet (anonymous if need be). If they try and implicate your mother, again ignorance is bliss... stick to the story "i moved out 6 years ago, no I haven't signed any tenancy agreements since...sorry". Don't want to be implicated in that lie..."I have no knowledge of any of this, I guess my (proven) dodgy brother forged my signature from the start"

It would be very hard for the landlord to prove your mother did a fraud at this point if played smart...Uncle well he can be shown to be forging signatures and subletting... the axe will fall on him... I wouldn't panic.... The police are not going to put your mum in Prison for bending the truth on a 7 year old lapsed tenancy agreement

And yes her pretending she was going to live there so your uncle would pass affordability checks is probably fraud (she’s convinced the landlord to let to your uncle on false pretences- obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception) made worse by the illegal subletting so I certainly wouldn’t be blazing in accusing the uncle of being a scammer.

Im not sure what point posters are making here, you're another one bringing this up, intending to live there doesnt negate that she put herself on it also to help him out. Perhaps she was intending to live there as part of the original plan but then changed her mind and decided its ONLY to help him with the affordability checks.

It doesnt mean it 'doesnt add up' and what does that mean in any case?

Makes no odds surely, the upshot she is on a tenancy that she doesnt want to be any more.

If they forged her signature she wouldn't be on hock for the whole things if they defaulted. The OG tenancy agreement has long since lapsed... the current agreement would have no legal standing because its fraudulent. Given the Mom had nothing to do with new agreements there is no danger she would be responsible for anything.

Assuming it would be easy to prove the fake signatures, this is backed up by the mom being good standing and the uncle being dodgy.... evidenced by 5 years of bills/council tax... to the mums property proving she "moved out ages ago" and there would be no reason why she'd keep renewing the tenancy agreement