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Legal matters

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Brother’s actions and inheritance

177 replies

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:16

I’m not sure what to do about this situation which has blown up since my last surviving parent passed away recently.
Seven years ago, my DD ( asd) inherited some money ( about £100k). For various reasons, I entrusted DB to keep it for her in his account until DD became an adult as my own finances were shaky. I have texts showing that he agreed and that it was DD’s money. Our relationship fell apart during early Covid era and he demanded that I take the money back but I said I couldn’t right now but I would do soon. I also found out that DB was pissed off that he had not been left anything by that person at the time. DB and his DW are both magic circle trained lawyers with huge savings ( worth millions together). I am a lone parent living on DDs DLA basically ( my ex was abusive and fully absent ) and full time carer to DD.
Over the past three years DB and I would text about majorly important things. The lines of communication were open even if the socialising was over.
Fast forward to this year, DB was pissed off about me declining a family invite ( it might have been an olive branch invite but I never wanted to start socialising with them again). Without telling me, DB transferred my DD!s money into our widowed parent’s account electronically, giving neither of us a say. Parent ( terminally ill, elderly) said it was because DB was pissed off about declined invitation and told me to take the money back before they died.
Now I did not feel that DB had the right to do that without my consent so I said that as far as I was concerned, my money was still in their account along with the other hundreds of thousands they have in savings. DDs money was not distinguishable from the rest of their savings but it was sent to an account belonging to parent with nothing else in it. My DDs gift would also have been tax free by this stage.
Now, surviving parent has died and DB is being obnoxious about it, saying it is irrelevant and nothing to do with them and that they will talk to the one other beneficiary about the possibility of them agreeing to me getting it back ( DB and I are co executors).
My questions are:
Can DB actually argue that he had a right to do this to DD’s money without my consent? I wouldn’t have agreed to it and I would have taken it back but he never asked?
can I pursue DB to give the money back from his account. I think it was a really dumb and or mean thing for a lawyer to do
As a co executor, do I really need the permission of the third beneficiary who is not an executor for DD to have ‘her’ money back? I gave emails from parent about the money and wanting to transfer it and it states that the money is DD’s and the amount.
DB is putting pressure on me to resign as co executor. They have all the certificates, bank statements etc and won’t show me anything. There was a weekend of ugly emails where they mocked my DDs disability, my parenting, my lack of finances, not taking responsibility etc and not for the first time. I felt they were gaslighting me because I am actually right.
As executor, could I approach the bank with what I have and ask to be given control over the money? I know DB has applied for probate but I understand that you can sometimes sort things out before it is granted?
I’m really worried for DD’s future as that money was hers, it was tax free and it may be vital to her survival in the future. I worry that DB and SIL Will use it for paying death duties and carry on using their vast savings for their bunch of kids ( all privately educated, luxury holidays, recently dropped £10k on a Taylor Swift weekend, you get the idea).

OP posts:
StormingNorman · 11/09/2024 18:26

Why didn’t you put it in an account in DD’s name to begin with? It could have been earning interest all this time and been fully protected from any third party.

TBH you sound very childish. When your brother moved the money you should have taken co from of it, whether you wanted to or not.

MyQuirkyDreamer · 11/09/2024 18:31

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MyQuirkyDreamer · 11/09/2024 18:32

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Natwestbit · 11/09/2024 18:34

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:56

This is helpful, thanks. If the third beneficiary does not agree then I suppose DD will potentially get two thirds back. Unfortunately this has permanently severed my relationship with DB because I would never have done this to his DC even though he may be legally fine according to the consensus on here.

It's not just that he's 'legally fine'. You left the money in the parent's account, when you had been asked to take it out. As it was still in there when they died your brother, as an executor, legally has to execute the will. As do you as co-executor. It's part of their estate.
Your brother asked you to take the money back when you fell out, but you didn't. He asked you to take it out of your parents' account after he moved it there, but you didn't. This is your fault Op, you should have done as you were asked when you were asked to.
At this stage you should take legal advice.

MouseMama · 11/09/2024 18:36

I think you have to say to your brother that he was holding the money on trust for your DD. You don’t have to use the word “trust” to create a trust and that’s effectively what this was. As a trustee he has fiduciary obligations to your DD. He now needs to repay the money to end the trust - together with accumulated interest. If he doesn’t then threaten to report him to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for conduct unbecoming of a solicitor and also make a legal claim against him to get the money (which was clearly not his to do with what he wanted).

I think you’ll need a solicitor on this to send the letters to your brother and realise you’re not playing games.

Whaleandsnail6 · 11/09/2024 18:50

I have no legal knowledge but I cant see what your brother has done wrong? He asked you more than once to take the money back and for some reason, you refused.

Its not fair to make someone hold onto a large amount of money if they dont want to and you don't seem to be willing to give him any option other than keep it himself (which he was not obligated to do once he asked you to take it) or transfer to parent. This mess is all your doing

I think you definitely need to pay for legal advice on how to get this back for your daughter.

SpiderPlanter · 11/09/2024 18:50

You keep saying he never offered but in your OP you said your brother asked you to take the money back and you refused?

I don’t understand why you’ve made some of these decisions, however I agree with others, you need to get some legal advice.

I wouldn’t take advice from this forum, you need proper advice.

turkeymuffin · 11/09/2024 19:00

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:34

I had/ still have no idea about how to open a trust. DB probably did but never helped or suggested it. Is it honestly the case that you can agree to look after somebody’s money, in writing, then dump it elsewhere without giving the chance to take it back?

You don't usually look after someone else's money. Not unless there's a nefarious reason. Are you trying to claim benefits you wouldn't be entitled to? This whole situation stinks from the beginning but sadly your daughter is the one who will suffer from her money seemingly stolen by her mother / uncle / etc. .

turkeymuffin · 11/09/2024 19:02

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:47

If I have screwed up then I really want to know what I can do to represent my DD’s interests given the current situation.
Otherwise, I expect that The money would be divided between three siblings, the one who is not an executor has been NC from the family for ages. They wouldn’t agree to giving up money for my DD’s sake. There is a paper trail or a partial one.

DB and I were close at the time of the initial transfer which was actually from DD’s child savings account ( the bank stopped offering the account so I thought the money would be safer with DB). I thought DB actually cared about DD’s interests on a purely human level and would not be able to screw us over with a clear conscience.

Bollocks to this.

Why would you take money from your daughter's saving account and give it to your brother?

That's theft.

Mrsredlipstick · 11/09/2024 19:06

I'm going to assume your daughter is now an adult and should have access to this money. It is your daughter's and anyone else would be claiming it fraudulently.
If this money exists you may be able to agree to paying a solicitor on completion of the matter. However it could cost £10k. Why your brother held this money I have no idea, no solicitor worth their salt would commit fraud, they'd lose their profession. SRA does not allow convictions. i suspect the idea was to deposit it for a short time. The interest is also your daughters. This is a mighty mess and needs a wills, trusts and probate lawyer. Do not go to an online company. You might be able to pay £300 for an hour at a local firm. You have also said you are to inherit from your late parent so if you can prove that a decent firm would take your case. And as an aside hmrc/ dwp can claim back money owed for 12 years (not 6). If you have been paid incorrectly you'll get a bill.

Trumptonagain · 11/09/2024 19:07

BodyKeepingScore · 11/09/2024 17:47

DLA is not means tested so why would OP have been "fraudulently" claiming it?

Having never claimed benefits I'm not up on what is or isn't means tested...

Must be another reason for it then as I can't see it being due to divorce as surly her ex couldn't lay claim to money belonging to her DD.

WhereTheHeckAreMyGlasses · 11/09/2024 19:46

iNoticed · 11/09/2024 18:00

IANAL but your DB was holding the funds on bare trust for your DD. It sounds as though this was then moved such that the now deceased parent was holding the funds on bare trust for your DD. Therefore it is not part of their Estate and as executors you should either now transfer this to a new trustee or to your DD. Whether you can physically do this, I’m not sure what access you have but I’m fairly certain a court would order this to happen.

The Estate can then be distributed to the beneficiaries. The sale of the property is another matter, and you would need to a court to force the sale if necessary - but this one you really do need a lawyer for.

I know YANAL, but maybe someone else can answer if necessary - what about the interest earned on the sum while it was with either trustee, and what about the tax that either trustee paid on the interest earned? Would those be due to the DD as well? It is all very messy. Had the person who made the gift died before seven years were up, would the OP have paid the IHT due? It seems to me she was happy for DB to carry that risk until the 7 years had safely passed. It all sounds like quite a deliberate scheme to either hide assets or de-risk the money.

Soontobe60 · 11/09/2024 20:53

Can I point out that the money was put in an account in DDs name initially but then the OP moved it to her brothers account,
DB and I were close at the time of the initial transfer which was actually from DD’s child savings account ( the bank stopped offering the account so I thought the money would be safer with DB). I thought DB actually cared about DD’s interests on a purely human level and would not be able to screw us over with a clear conscience

FattipuffToThinnifer · 11/09/2024 21:17

I was going to weigh in on compound interest but @AlohaRose has said it. The sum of money could easily have grown to £140k in this time (conservatively over 7 years) There’s no way the brother could have taken that on as a higher rate tax payer.

OP your daughter’s “inheritance” has depreciated massively over these years

iNoticed · 11/09/2024 21:18

WhereTheHeckAreMyGlasses · 11/09/2024 19:46

I know YANAL, but maybe someone else can answer if necessary - what about the interest earned on the sum while it was with either trustee, and what about the tax that either trustee paid on the interest earned? Would those be due to the DD as well? It is all very messy. Had the person who made the gift died before seven years were up, would the OP have paid the IHT due? It seems to me she was happy for DB to carry that risk until the 7 years had safely passed. It all sounds like quite a deliberate scheme to either hide assets or de-risk the money.

The correct position would be that DD should have e reported tax and paid if due and any interest is also hers, as that’s how bare trusts work. But you’re right, this whole arrangement seems shambolic.

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 21:34

Stopbeingawalkoverandwalk · 11/09/2024 16:51

"Trust" isn't just a formal, legal arrangement, it's an assumption that the law makes in certain circumstances. For example, a "constructive" trust might arise in this case if the £100k is in the legal possession of the brother or the parents' estate (through a bank account in their name), but it would be unconscionable for them to assert legal ownership because of the intentions of the parties when it came into the possession of the prima facie legal owner.

Everyone going on about benefit fraud, IHT, depriving the ex of community assets etc - none of that matters wrt the question of the legal ownership of that £100k. Yes, the OP may have a case to answer regarding those things, but none of that justifies the money being kept from the person who actually owns it .

It wasn’t being kept from her. She was asked repeatedly to take the money

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 21:36

LibertyStars · 11/09/2024 16:45

This is wrong, sorry. You don’t need a formal trust document to create a trust (although of course you can use one). If they agreed that he was holding the money for the daughter then he held it in trust.

He didn’t agree to hold the money. She said he repeatedly told her to take the money, and only after many years did he transfer it into this account

PrincessofWells · 11/09/2024 21:40

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 21:36

He didn’t agree to hold the money. She said he repeatedly told her to take the money, and only after many years did he transfer it into this account

This is irrelevant, the money was still held on trust for the daughter. It doesn't change the ownership of the money.

People on here are not understanding trusts.

PenelopePitStrop · 11/09/2024 21:55

LibertyStars · 11/09/2024 14:10

This is correct. Your brother held the money on trust for your daughter- it’s hers. So the options are-
—he moved it into this other account while still holding it on trust for DD. So it just gets paid back to your DD. Nothing to do with the other beneficiary.
-alternatively he can argue that when he moved it into the other account, he gave it to the account holder. That gift probably wouldn’t be effective and your DD can still get the money back OR she could claim against your brother for breach of trust and recover the money from him personally.

Suspect when you put it to your brother like this, he will agree that it can be paid back.

All that said, I agree with PP that this all sounds very strange and I wonder whether you’ve been attempting to hide the money for some reason. Obviously if you can’t go to court to recover the money from your brother without admitting to something illegal, you’re in a much weaker position practically.

He put it in his and the OP’s now decided parent’s account, apparently with no paper trail, not his own separate account

friendlycat · 11/09/2024 22:05

FattipuffToThinnifer · 11/09/2024 21:17

I was going to weigh in on compound interest but @AlohaRose has said it. The sum of money could easily have grown to £140k in this time (conservatively over 7 years) There’s no way the brother could have taken that on as a higher rate tax payer.

OP your daughter’s “inheritance” has depreciated massively over these years

With interest rates being so low for quite a few of those years there’s absolutely no way the investment would have grown by 40%.

Also the brother would have needed to declare interest on his self assessment and paid tax on the interest.

FattipuffToThinnifer · 11/09/2024 22:31

friendlycat · 11/09/2024 22:05

With interest rates being so low for quite a few of those years there’s absolutely no way the investment would have grown by 40%.

Also the brother would have needed to declare interest on his self assessment and paid tax on the interest.

That would be a 5% compounded (over 7 years) which should certainly be achievable if invested (as a trust would do)

And yes, that is my point re the brother; he would have to pay tax on any interest it incurred - a liability to him

By hiding the money all this time it looks like it will have cost the OP’s daughter many thousands

PrincessofWells · 11/09/2024 23:05

There is not necessarily a duty on a trustee to achieve the highest possible gain but to exercise diligence and care in view of all the circumstances. In this case as it is a child's money it would be reasonable to put it in a building society or other low risk account with the trustee accounting for the gain.

vivainsomnia · 12/09/2024 08:37

OP was recieving benefits and upon transfer, would have meant losing those benefits.

Only money already in trust upon death would be disregarded. So this was a way to avoid the system and now it backfired.

Although I understand why you would have done it. It was a big error of the donor not to have put it in trust whilst they were alive.

PrincessofWells · 12/09/2024 17:43

vivainsomnia · 12/09/2024 08:37

OP was recieving benefits and upon transfer, would have meant losing those benefits.

Only money already in trust upon death would be disregarded. So this was a way to avoid the system and now it backfired.

Although I understand why you would have done it. It was a big error of the donor not to have put it in trust whilst they were alive.

Where does Op say she was in receipt of means tested benefits?

SwiftiesVSLestat · 12/09/2024 17:52

PrincessofWells · 12/09/2024 17:43

Where does Op say she was in receipt of means tested benefits?

She says she is living off dds dla.

So must also be getting other benefits as 2 adults couldn’t live of DLA (or Pip if that’s what she means).

So there will be other benefits that are means tested.